Discussion:
OBAMA's HIGH-SPEED RAIL DREAM ? A BOONDOGGLE, Just Like It's Always Been!
(too old to reply)
Kyle Schwitters
2009-08-24 14:33:02 UTC
Permalink
"The high-speed vision is a mirage. The costs of high-speed rail would
be huge, and the public benefits meager."

"In a country where 140 million people go to work every day, Amtrak
has 78,000 daily passengers. A typical trip is subsidized by about
$50."


-------------------------------------
"A Rail Boondoggle, Moving at High Speed"

By Robert J. Samuelson
Monday, August 24, 2009


THE OBAMA administration's enthusiasm for high-speed rail is a
dispiriting example of government's inability to learn from past
mistakes. Since 1971, the federal government has poured almost $35
billion in subsidies into Amtrak with few public benefits. At most,
we've gotten negligible reductions -- invisible and statistically
insignificant -- in congestion, oil use or greenhouse gases. What's
mainly being provided is subsidized transportation for a small sliver
of the population. In a country where 140 million people go to work
every day, Amtrak has 78,000 daily passengers. A typical trip is
subsidized by about $50.

Given this, you'd think even the dullest politician wouldn't expand
rail subsidies, especially considering the almost $11 trillion in
projected federal budget deficits between now and 2019. But no, the
administration has made high-speed rail a top priority. It's already
proposed spending $13 billion ($8 billion in the "stimulus" package
and $1 billion annually for five years) as a down payment on high-
speed rail in 10 "corridors," including Philadelphia to Pittsburgh and
Houston to New Orleans.

The White House promises fabulous benefits. High-speed rail "will
loosen the congestion suffocating our highways and skyways," says Vice
President Biden. A high-speed rail system would eliminate carbon
dioxide emissions "equal to removing 1 million cars from our roads,"
adds the president. Relieve congestion. Fight global warming. Reduce
oil imports. The vision is seductive. The audience is willing. Many
Americans love trains and regard other countries' systems (say,
Spain's rapid trains between Madrid and Barcelona, running at about
150 mph) as evidence of U.S. technological inferiority.

There's only one catch: The vision is a mirage. The costs of high-
speed rail would be huge, and the public benefits meager.

President Obama's network may never be built. It's doubtful private
investors will advance the money, and once government officials
acknowledge the full costs, they'll retreat. In a recent report, the
Government Accountability Office cited a range of construction costs,
from $22 million a mile to $132 million a mile. Harvard economist
Edward Glaeser figures $50 million a mile might be a plausible
average. A 250-mile system would cost $12.5 billion and 10 systems,
$125 billion.

That would be only the beginning. Ticket prices would surely be
subsidized; otherwise, no one would ride the trains. Would all the
subsidies be justified by public benefits -- less congestion, fewer
highway accidents, lower greenhouse gases?

In a blog-posted analysis, Glaeser made generous assumptions for
trains ("Personally, I almost always prefer trains to driving") and
still found that costs vastly outweigh benefits. Consider Obama's
claim about removing the equivalent of 1 million cars. Even if it came
true (doubtful), it would represent less than one-half of 1 percent of
the 254 million registered vehicles in 2007.

What works in Europe and Asia won't in the United States. Even abroad,
passenger trains are subsidized. But the subsidies are more
justifiable because geography and energy policies differ.

Densities are much higher, and high densities favor rail with direct
connections between heavily populated city centers and business
districts. In Japan, density is 880 people per square mile; it's 653
in Britain, 611 in Germany and 259 in France. By contrast, plentiful
land in the United States has led to suburbanized homes, offices and
factories. Density is 86 people per square mile. Trains can't pick up
most people where they live and work and take them to where they want
to go. Cars can.

Distances also matter. America is big; trips are longer. Beyond 400 to
500 miles, fast trains can't compete with planes. Finally, Europe and
Japan tax car transportation more heavily, pushing people to trains.
In August 2008, notes the GAO, gasoline in Japan was $6.50 a gallon.
Americans regard $4 a gallon as an outrage. Proposals for stiff
gasoline taxes (advocated by many, including me) go nowhere.

The mythology of high-speed rail is not just misinformed; it's
antisocial. Governments at all levels are already overburdened.
Compounding the burdens with new wasteful subsidies would squeeze
spending for more vital needs -- schools, police and (ironically) mass
transit. High-speed rail could divert funds from mass-transit systems
that, according to a study by Randal O'Toole of the Cato Institute,
have huge maintenance backlogs: $16 billion in Chicago; $17 billion in
New York; $12.2 billion in Washington; $5.8 billion in San Francisco.
Any high-speed rail system should be financed locally; states should
decide their transportation priorities.

All this seems familiar, because it's Amtrak writ large: the triumph
of fantasy over fact. The same false arguments used to justify Amtrak
(less congestion, pollution, etc.) are recycled. Evidence and
experience count for little. Obama and Biden pander to popular
prejudices instead of recognizing past failure. Boondoggles become
respectable. A White House so frivolous in embracing dubious spending
cannot be believed when it professes concern about future taxes and
budget deficits.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/23/AR2009082302037.html
(¯`·.žCraig Chiltonž.·Ž¯) •• WHY be Unemployed? <www.LayoffRemedy.com> ••
2009-08-24 14:50:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 07:33:02 -0700 (PDT),
"In a country where 140 million people go to work every day...
...our passenger rail system SUCKS.

Up until 1965, we used to have a WONDEREFUL passenger
rail system. NOW, to see such a system, one needs to go to
Europe or Russia!

There's no excuse for the USA's having regressed to 1850!!

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

••• Rest in Peace •••
••• George Richard Tiller, MD •••
••• A True American HERO! •••
••• August 8, 1941 – May 31, 2009 •••

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

-- Craig Chilton <***@mchsi.com>

www.LayoffRemedy.com -- Unemployment Solution!
www.ChristianEgalitarian.com -- Fight the RRR Cult!
http://apifar.blogspot.com -- Tactics: Defending Human Rights
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www.shadowandillusion.com -- Learn "The LOPAQUA Secret!"
www.TravelForPay.org -- Learn how to get PAID to TRAVEL!
mani deli
2009-08-24 16:42:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:50:04 GMT, "(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) •• WHY be
Post by (¯`·.žCraig Chiltonž.·Ž¯) •• WHY be Unemployed? <www.LayoffRemedy.com> ••
"In a country where 140 million people go to work every day...
...our passenger rail system SUCKS.
Up until 1965, we used to have a WONDEREFUL passenger
rail system. NOW, to see such a system, one needs to go to
Europe or Russia!
There's no excuse for the USA's having regressed to 1850!!
The rail system and public bus systems were ruined by the car and gas
companies who bought off congress and local governments.

As a consequence our roads are cluttered with cars and stinking trucks
and the consequences of that.
(¯`·.žCraig Chiltonž.·Ž¯) •• WHY be Unemployed? <www.LayoffRemedy.com> ••
2009-08-24 21:05:11 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:42:04 -0400,
"(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) •• WHY be Unemployed?
Post by (¯`·.žCraig Chiltonž.·Ž¯) •• WHY be Unemployed? <www.LayoffRemedy.com> ••
"In a country where 140 million people go to work every day...
...our passenger rail system SUCKS.
Up until 1965, we used to have a WONDEREFUL passenger
rail system. NOW, to see such a system, one needs to go to
Europe or Russia!
There's no excuse for the USA's having regressed to 1850!!
The rail system and public bus systems were ruined by the car and
gas companies who bought off congress and local governments.
As a consequence our roads are cluttered with cars and stinking
trucks and the consequences of that.
EXACTLY!! The Europeans were SMART enough to AVOID
doing that, and now they have a PHENOMENAL transportation
system!

As for the trucks, though -- they ARE needed. In the same
role they have now. Using RR freight terminals as "break-in-bulk"
transition points for completing the journey of goods to the
stores. Europe tends to call them "lorries," but they have trucks
just as we do.

"If you bought it, a truck brought it."
mani deli
2009-08-24 22:19:41 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:05:11 GMT, "(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) •• WHY be
Post by (¯`·.žCraig Chiltonž.·Ž¯) •• WHY be Unemployed? <www.LayoffRemedy.com> ••
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 12:42:04 -0400,
"(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) •• WHY be Unemployed?
Post by (¯`·.žCraig Chiltonž.·Ž¯) •• WHY be Unemployed? <www.LayoffRemedy.com> ••
"In a country where 140 million people go to work every day...
...our passenger rail system SUCKS.
Up until 1965, we used to have a WONDEREFUL passenger
rail system. NOW, to see such a system, one needs to go to
Europe or Russia!
There's no excuse for the USA's having regressed to 1850!!
The rail system and public bus systems were ruined by the car and
gas companies who bought off congress and local governments.
As a consequence our roads are cluttered with cars and stinking
trucks and the consequences of that.
EXACTLY!! The Europeans were SMART enough to AVOID
doing that, and now they have a PHENOMENAL transportation
system!
As for the trucks, though -- they ARE needed. In the same
role they have now. Using RR freight terminals as "break-in-bulk"
transition points for completing the journey of goods to the
stores. Europe tends to call them "lorries," but they have trucks
just as we do.
"If you bought it, a truck brought it."
Nothing wrong with trucks and cars, it's the amount.
softsofa
2009-08-24 19:52:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:50:04 GMT, "(¯`·.¸Craig Chilton¸.·´¯) •• WHY be
Post by (¯`·.žCraig Chiltonž.·Ž¯) •• WHY be Unemployed? <www.LayoffRemedy.com> ••
Up until 1965, we used to have a WONDEREFUL passenger
rail system. NOW, to see such a system, one needs to go to
Europe or Russia!
There's no excuse for the USA's having regressed to 1850!!
Let's bring her into the 1930's

Woo-wooooooooo-ooooooooo-oooooooooooo.......



[]softsofa[]
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2009-08-24 23:09:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by (¯`·.žCraig Chiltonž.·Ž¯) •• WHY be Unemployed? <www.LayoffRemedy.com> ••
Up until 1965, we used to have a WONDEREFUL passenger
rail system.
For successful competition to the car, passenger rail should operate at
100 mph or more. (Railroads understood that in the late 1920s, and prepared
for it.)

Substract the slower sections, and judge again.



Hans-Joachim
--
In one European country, GM locos still
provide the backbone of passenger traffic.

http://www.drehscheibe-online.de/galerie/bilder/k2_4220-4cf9383ed.jpg
Stephen Sprunk
2009-08-24 15:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kyle Schwitters
THE OBAMA administration's enthusiasm for high-speed rail is a
dispiriting example of government's inability to learn from past
mistakes. Since 1971, the federal government has poured almost $35
billion in subsidies into Amtrak with few public benefits. At most,
we've gotten negligible reductions -- invisible and statistically
insignificant -- in congestion, oil use or greenhouse gases. What's
mainly being provided is subsidized transportation for a small sliver
of the population. In a country where 140 million people go to work
every day, Amtrak has 78,000 daily passengers. A typical trip is
subsidized by about $50.
First of all, Amtrak is not HSR; the economics are completely different.
Second, Amtrak or HSR is for intercity travel, not commuting to work.
Third, this article completely ignores how much airports, airlines,
highways, and local streets are subsidized. Fourth, more investment in
capacity will reduce the per-passenger(-mile) subsidy of rail through
more efficient operation.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
President Obama's network may never be built. It's doubtful private
investors will advance the money, and once government officials
acknowledge the full costs, they'll retreat. In a recent report, the
Government Accountability Office cited a range of construction costs,
from $22 million a mile to $132 million a mile. Harvard economist
Edward Glaeser figures $50 million a mile might be a plausible
average. A 250-mile system would cost $12.5 billion and 10 systems,
$125 billion.
In most parts of the US, construction costs would be significantly
cheaper than cited above. The most expensive areas, such as mountains,
are not included in the ten proposed corridors. Urban segments, which
are fairly expensive, would be a tiny fraction of the total mileage.
Also, the construction could be done incrementally with verifiable
results for the least expensive improvements before moving on to the
more expensive ones, if run properly.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
That would be only the beginning. Ticket prices would surely be
subsidized; otherwise, no one would ride the trains. Would all the
subsidies be justified by public benefits -- less congestion, fewer
highway accidents, lower greenhouse gases?
Why must they be subsidized? Many lines in other countries turn an
operating profit, and they could here as well.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
What works in Europe and Asia won't in the United States. Even abroad,
passenger trains are subsidized. But the subsidies are more
justifiable because geography and energy policies differ.
There's a huge difference between subsidizing capital costs and
subsidizing operations. Yes, low-speed trains (similar to Amtrak) are
subsidized abroad; high-speed trains are generally not -- just the
infrastructure.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Densities are much higher, and high densities favor rail with direct
connections between heavily populated city centers and business
districts. In Japan, density is 880 people per square mile; it's 653
in Britain, 611 in Germany and 259 in France. By contrast, plentiful
land in the United States has led to suburbanized homes, offices and
factories. Density is 86 people per square mile. Trains can't pick up
most people where they live and work and take them to where they want
to go. Cars can.
All completely irrelevant to intercity travel.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Distances also matter. America is big; trips are longer. Beyond 400 to
500 miles, fast trains can't compete with planes.
The competitive limit appears to be 4-5 hours; with an average speed of
150mph, that means the distance is 600-750 miles.

Planes are very inefficient for such short trips, which clog up
airports, unnecessarily increase public subsidies for aviation, and cost
airlines a lot of money which must be subsidized by their more
efficient, more profitable long-haul trips.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Any high-speed rail system should be financed locally; states should
decide their transportation priorities.
A workable intercity rail system cannot be financed "locally", and most
states are too small (both by area and by population) to do a useful job
of it either. Interstate commerce is Congress's job for a reason.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "Stupid people surround themselves with smart
CCIE #3723 people. Smart people surround themselves with
K5SSS smart people who disagree with them." --Isaac Jaffe
(¯`·.žCraig Chiltonž.·Ž¯) •• WHY be Unemployed? <www.LayoffRemedy.com> ••
2009-08-24 21:24:47 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:32:33 -0500,
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Kyle Schwitters
THE OBAMA administration's enthusiasm for high-speed rail is a
dispiriting example of government's inability to learn from past
mistakes. Since 1971, the federal government has poured almost $35
billion in subsidies into Amtrak with few public benefits. At most,
we've gotten negligible reductions -- invisible and statistically
insignificant -- in congestion, oil use or greenhouse gases. What's
mainly being provided is subsidized transportation for a small sliver
of the population. In a country where 140 million people go to work
every day, Amtrak has 78,000 daily passengers. A typical trip is
subsidized by about $50.
First of all, Amtrak is not HSR; the economics are completely different.
Second, Amtrak or HSR is for intercity travel, not commuting to work.
Tell that to people living in the Northeast Corridor.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Third, this article completely ignores how much airports, airlines,
highways, and local streets are subsidized. Fourth, more investment in
capacity will reduce the per-passenger(-mile) subsidy of rail through
more efficient operation.
Right. (And what I said above was not a criticism; I was just
pointing out something you apparently overlooked.)
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Kyle Schwitters
President Obama's network may never be built. It's doubtful private
investors will advance the money, and once government officials
acknowledge the full costs, they'll retreat. In a recent report, the
Government Accountability Office cited a range of construction costs,
from $22 million a mile to $132 million a mile. Harvard economist
Edward Glaeser figures $50 million a mile might be a plausible
average. A 250-mile system would cost $12.5 billion and 10 systems,
$125 billion.
In most parts of the US, construction costs would be significantly
cheaper than cited above. The most expensive areas, such as moun-
tains, are not included in the ten proposed corridors. Urban segments,
which are fairly expensive, would be a tiny fraction of the total mileage.
Also, the construction could be done incrementally with verifiable
results for the least expensive improvements before moving on to
the more expensive ones, if run properly.
Too, passenger trains could be run on the SAME tracks as are
currently being used by freight trains, and those are ABUNDANT!
This would probably require building more sidings along the routes,
to allow trains to pass where there are only one or two sets of
tracks. I've ridden the Trans-Siberian RR multiple times, and the
schedules allow for both the freight and passenger trains along
that route to allow each other to pass via the use of sidings. (And
what a ride!! 4 days and 4 nights in a comfortable and private
compartment with meal service, from Moscow to Irkutsk! Always
a DREAM trip!
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Kyle Schwitters
That would be only the beginning. Ticket prices would surely be
subsidized; otherwise, no one would ride the trains. Would all the
subsidies be justified by public benefits -- less congestion, fewer
highway accidents, lower greenhouse gases?
Why must they be subsidized? Many lines in other countries turn
an operating profit, and they could here as well.
Of COURSE they could. And we could buy our rolling stock from
Europe, where they build it all the time. Beautiful, comfortable cars!
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Kyle Schwitters
What works in Europe and Asia won't in the United States.
Even abroad, passenger trains are subsidized. But the subsidies
are more justifiable because geography and energy policies differ.
There's a huge difference between subsidizing capital costs and
subsidizing operations. Yes, low-speed trains (similar to Amtrak) are
subsidized abroad; high-speed trains are generally not -- just the
infrastructure.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Densities are much higher, and high densities favor rail with direct
connections between heavily populated city centers and business
districts. In Japan, density is 880 people per square mile; it's 653
in Britain, 611 in Germany and 259 in France. By contrast, plentiful
land in the United States has led to suburbanized homes, offices and
factories. Density is 86 people per square mile. Trains can't pick up
most people where they live and work and take them to where they want
to go. Cars can.
Evidently you weren't a teen or older in the 1950s. Rail travel
between smaller towns was plentiful and frequent.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
All completely irrelevant to intercity travel.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Distances also matter. America is big; trips are longer. Beyond 400 to
500 miles, fast trains can't compete with planes.
The competitive limit appears to be 4-5 hours; with an average
speed of 150mph, that means the distance is 600-750 miles.
In Europe, I like to economize by travelling via Eurailpasses. At
night, If I want to spend multiple days in the same city, I go outbound
half the night on one train, and inbound the other half of the night
on another train. ZERO hotel costs. GREAT way to explore Europe!
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Planes are very inefficient for such short trips, which clog up
airports, unnecessarily increase public subsidies for aviation, and
cost airlines a lot of money which must be subsidized by their more
efficient, more profitable long-haul trips.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Any high-speed rail system should be financed locally; states
should decide their transportation priorities.
A workable intercity rail system cannot be financed "locally", and
most states are too small (both by area and by population) to do a
useful job of it either. Interstate commerce is Congress's job for a
reason.
The way I see it, if fedgov is gonna be in hock for 20 TRILLION
dollars in national debt over the next decade, the PEOPLE oughta
be able to get some benefit from all of that. We need a RAIL system
as good as Europe's!
Sir F. A. Rien
2009-08-25 00:26:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Kyle Schwitters
THE OBAMA administration's enthusiasm for high-speed rail is a
dispiriting example of government's inability to learn from past
mistakes. Since 1971, the federal government has poured almost $35
billion in subsidies into Amtrak with few public benefits. At most,
we've gotten negligible reductions -- invisible and statistically
insignificant -- in congestion, oil use or greenhouse gases. What's
mainly being provided is subsidized transportation for a small sliver
of the population. In a country where 140 million people go to work
every day, Amtrak has 78,000 daily passengers. A typical trip is
subsidized by about $50.
First of all, Amtrak is not HSR; the economics are completely different.
Second, Amtrak or HSR is for intercity travel, not commuting to work.
Third, this article completely ignores how much airports, airlines,
highways, and local streets are subsidized. Fourth, more investment in
capacity will reduce the per-passenger(-mile) subsidy of rail through
more efficient operation.
Butt ... you're presuming that the additional capacity will be utilized.

Another case of 'build it and they will come', but nothing is assured.

Hey, you children wanted this Obama Nation!
Miles Bader
2009-08-25 00:32:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F. A. Rien
Hey, you children wanted this Obama Nation!
You forgot "... and get off my lawn!"

-miles
--
Resign, v. A good thing to do when you are going to be kicked out.
Sir F. A. Rien
2009-08-25 15:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miles Bader
Post by Sir F. A. Rien
Hey, you children wanted this Obama Nation!
You forgot "... and get off my lawn!"
-miles
Wot ???

The ploker's using my Grass now?

<G>
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-08-25 01:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F. A. Rien
Butt ... you're presuming that the additional capacity will be utilized.
Amtrak is carrying record ridership. It goes up every year. It's
premium Acela service has been hugely popular

Every time quality train service is offered it attracts riders.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-08-24 17:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Since 1971, the federal government has poured almost $35
billion in subsidies into Amtrak with few public benefits.
Mr. Sprunk's excellent response above details many of the errors in
this piece. In addition:

Amtrak has provided many public benefits. The nation's highways and
airways have long been able to support total demand and Amtrak is an
"overflow".

Highways and aviation are more sensitive to weather than Amtrak is;
when roads and airports are closed often Amtrak keeps going. There
have been many storms where airports were closed for _days_, leaving
the passengers to sleep on the cold hard terminal floor.

Highways and airports chew up a lot of land. Trains require a much
narrower ROW to transport the same amount of people and freight. A
train terminal may be underground in a built up city.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
A typical trip is
subsidized by about $50.
More like $30.

More significantly, highways and airways get significant general tax
subsidies. Public safety needs of highways--police, fire, rescue--are
paid via local property taxes. Some highways are supported by local
property taxes. The enormous land use of highways and airports--
especially in the future to meet growth--removes productive land from
the tax base.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Given this, you'd think even the dullest politician wouldn't expand
rail subsidies, especially considering the almost $11 trillion in
projected federal budget deficits between now and 2019.
Amtrak gets about 2% of the USDOT budget, which in turn is about 2% of
the entire Federal budget. Eliminating Amtrak will not solve the
budget deficit.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
There's only one catch: The vision is a mirage. The costs of high-
speed rail would be huge, and the public benefits meager.
There are a great many train corridors in the US not used to capacity
which can be redeveloped for faster trains. There would be little
need to obtain more scarce and very expensive land.

But if better train service is not provided, more highways and
airports will be required, taking up huge chunks of land, kicking
people out of their homes and ruining businesses.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
What works in Europe and Asia won't in the United States. Even abroad,
passenger trains are subsidized. But the subsidies are more
justifiable because geography and energy policies differ.
As mentioned, the focus of trains is on short and medium haul
transport; long haul would remain with air. This happens to fit the
niche where airlines are extremely inefficient. Geography and energy
prices are extremely significant in these short-medium haul corridors.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Distances also matter. America is big; trips are longer. Beyond 400 to
500 miles, fast trains can't compete with planes.
Future train service is NOT intended to compete with trips over 500
miles; that IS intended to be left to air.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
The mythology of high-speed rail is not just misinformed; it's
antisocial. Governments at all levels are already overburdened.
Except that highways, highway construction, highway safety services,
highway maintenance, airports and air traffic control are all operated
by the government by a huge bureaucracy. The future will require this
to be expanded.
DockScience
2009-11-28 02:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Kyle Schwitters
A typical trip is
subsidized by about $50.
More like $30.
Actually it's $100/trip if one takes into account that the Northeast
Corridor actually generates profits and the subsidies instead go to all the
other non-profitable routes.

If Amtrak were forced to operate as a business, it would only operate
Bos-Ny-Washington and there would be no other routes.
Bolwerk
2009-11-28 23:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by DockScience
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Kyle Schwitters
A typical trip is
subsidized by about $50.
More like $30.
Does anybody have any actual numbers? Amtrak's operations are
subsidized to the tune of around 32%. I guess that means that for every
$100 in fares sold, the government is kicking in another $47 or so.

What's the average ticket cost?
Post by DockScience
Actually it's $100/trip if one takes into account that the Northeast
Corridor actually generates profits and the subsidies instead go to all the
other non-profitable routes.
The Acela Express pays for its own operations, but IIRC the margin is
rather small. I'm not sure the other NE corridor services can even say
that much though.
Post by DockScience
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a business, it would only operate
Bos-Ny-Washington and there would be no other routes.
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a private business, it would be
allowed to discount its rates to maximize profit (minimize loss?),
reduce its labor overhead, invest in potentially profitable routes, and
divest itself of unprofitable routes --- and it probably wouldn't be
paying railroad pensions for people who never worked for it.

AFAIK, there are a handful of other routes around the country that turn
an operating profit and a few more that come pretty close.
Alan Larsson
2009-11-28 23:17:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by DockScience
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Kyle Schwitters
A typical trip is
subsidized by about $50.
More like $30.
Does anybody have any actual numbers? Amtrak's operations are
subsidized to the tune of around 32%. I guess that means that for every
$100 in fares sold, the government is kicking in another $47 or so.
What's the average ticket cost?
Post by DockScience
Actually it's $100/trip if one takes into account that the Northeast
Corridor actually generates profits and the subsidies instead go to
all the other non-profitable routes.
The Acela Express pays for its own operations, but IIRC the margin is
rather small. I'm not sure the other NE corridor services can even say
that much though.
Post by DockScience
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a business, it would only operate
Bos-Ny-Washington and there would be no other routes.
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a private business, it would be
allowed to discount its rates to maximize profit (minimize loss?),
reduce its labor overhead, invest in potentially profitable routes, and
divest itself of unprofitable routes --- and it probably wouldn't be
paying railroad pensions for people who never worked for it.
AFAIK, there are a handful of other routes around the country that turn
an operating profit and a few more that come pretty close.
Here are some numbers and facts:
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/10/29/study-shows-that-amtrak-costs-38-per-passenger-how-much-do-hig/

Actually, I beleive passenger rail has never made money in the US, and
has always been subsidised. Just originally it was not called a
subsidy, it was the RPO and the money from the post office. Once that
ended in the late 60's is when the passenger rails fell apart leading to
Amtrak in the first place.
Bolwerk
2009-11-28 23:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Larsson
Post by Bolwerk
Post by DockScience
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Kyle Schwitters
A typical trip is
subsidized by about $50.
More like $30.
Does anybody have any actual numbers? Amtrak's operations are
subsidized to the tune of around 32%. I guess that means that for
every $100 in fares sold, the government is kicking in another $47 or so.
What's the average ticket cost?
Post by DockScience
Actually it's $100/trip if one takes into account that the Northeast
Corridor actually generates profits and the subsidies instead go to
all the other non-profitable routes.
The Acela Express pays for its own operations, but IIRC the margin is
rather small. I'm not sure the other NE corridor services can even
say that much though.
Post by DockScience
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a business, it would only operate
Bos-Ny-Washington and there would be no other routes.
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a private business, it would be
allowed to discount its rates to maximize profit (minimize loss?),
reduce its labor overhead, invest in potentially profitable routes,
and divest itself of unprofitable routes --- and it probably wouldn't
be paying railroad pensions for people who never worked for it.
AFAIK, there are a handful of other routes around the country that
turn an operating profit and a few more that come pretty close.
Interesting, but it doesn't say what the typical fare is.
Post by Alan Larsson
Actually, I beleive passenger rail has never made money in the US, and
has always been subsidised. Just originally it was not called a
subsidy, it was the RPO and the money from the post office. Once that
ended in the late 60's is when the passenger rails fell apart leading to
Amtrak in the first place.
The RPO cars certainly funded unprofitable routes, but I don't think
they were exclusively responsible for profitability.

Regardless, commuter railroads, rapid transit, and streetcars certainly
turned profits at certain points in history.
Sancho Panza
2009-11-28 23:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Larsson
Post by DockScience
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Kyle Schwitters
A typical trip is
subsidized by about $50.
More like $30.
Does anybody have any actual numbers? Amtrak's operations are subsidized
to the tune of around 32%. I guess that means that for every $100 in
fares sold, the government is kicking in another $47 or so.
What's the average ticket cost?
Post by DockScience
Actually it's $100/trip if one takes into account that the Northeast
Corridor actually generates profits and the subsidies instead go to all
the other non-profitable routes.
The Acela Express pays for its own operations, but IIRC the margin is
rather small. I'm not sure the other NE corridor services can even say
that much though.
Post by DockScience
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a business, it would only operate
Bos-Ny-Washington and there would be no other routes.
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a private business, it would be
allowed to discount its rates to maximize profit (minimize loss?), reduce
its labor overhead, invest in potentially profitable routes, and divest
itself of unprofitable routes --- and it probably wouldn't be paying
railroad pensions for people who never worked for it.
AFAIK, there are a handful of other routes around the country that turn
an operating profit and a few more that come pretty close.
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/10/29/study-shows-that-amtrak-costs-38-per-passenger-how-much-do-hig/
It is tough for anyone who has flown a commercial plane and examined his
ticket to put much credence in a source that says, "federal funds pay for
airport security."
g***@yahoo.com
2009-11-29 20:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sancho Panza
It is tough for anyone who has flown a commercial plane and examined his
ticket to put much credence in a source that says, "federal funds pay for
airport security."
Maybe, but I'm not completely convinced that the ticket fees completely
cover the cost of operating the TSA. It seems to me that I have seen some
congressional funds sent that direction.
--
-Glennl
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam, and most e-mail sent to this address are simply lost in the vast mess.
Stephen Sprunk
2009-11-29 02:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by DockScience
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
A typical trip is subsidized by about $50.
More like $30.
Does anybody have any actual numbers?
All you have to do is look at Amtrak's Annual Report, which is available
on their web site under "Reports & Documents". ("Investor Relations" is
the standard location, even for public agencies, but Amtrak has renamed
it since I last looked.)
Post by Bolwerk
Amtrak's operations are subsidized to the tune of around 32%. I guess
that means that for every $100 in fares sold, the government is kicking
in another $47 or so.
2008 Passenger revenue: $1,955,422,000
2008 Federal grants: $1,314,528,000

So, for every $100 in fares, the feds kick in another $67.22.

(That's 40.2% subsidy, FYI.)
Post by Bolwerk
What's the average ticket cost?
$1,955,422,000 / 28,700,000 passengers = $68.13/passenger
Post by Bolwerk
Post by DockScience
Actually it's $100/trip if one takes into account that the Northeast
Corridor actually generates profits and the subsidies instead go to
all the other non-profitable routes.
The Acela Express pays for its own operations, but IIRC the margin is
rather small. I'm not sure the other NE corridor services can even say
that much though.
Only Acela covers its operating cost; all the other NEC trains lose
money, just like the LD and regional trains around the rest of the country.

IIRC, Acela also pays for its share of the capital costs.
Post by Bolwerk
Post by DockScience
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a business, it would only operate
Bos-Ny-Washington and there would be no other routes.
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a private business, it would be
allowed to discount its rates to maximize profit (minimize loss?),
Yes, it could.

OTOH, Amtrak would have to start paying property taxes on the NEC if it
were a private business; currently it is exempt as a pseudo-government
entity. Even if they were turning a profit today, that additional
expense would surely sink them.
Post by Bolwerk
reduce its labor overhead,
Not as long as the unions and FRA insist on overcrewing trains, and that
applies to private companies as well.
Post by Bolwerk
invest in potentially profitable routes,
Investing implies they have cash or credit to do so, and Amtrak does not.
Post by Bolwerk
and divest itself of unprofitable routes
You mean all of them? There wouldn't be much of a railroad left.

Keep in mind that if Amtrak eliminated the biggest money-losers, that
would reduce demand (and increase losses) on other routes, snowballing
until it took down the entire network.

Due to network effects, the only way to survive is to _grow_ your way to
profitability. Shrinking a network _reduces_ its value.
Post by Bolwerk
--- and it probably wouldn't be paying railroad pensions for people
who never worked for it.
All railroads, both public and private, are paying for those pensions.
Post by Bolwerk
AFAIK, there are a handful of other routes around the country that turn
an operating profit
I've never seen any reliable claims of such; AFAIK, Acela is the only one.
Post by Bolwerk
and a few more that come pretty close.
Such as?

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
HAL
2009-11-29 02:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Not as long as the unions and FRA insist on overcrewing trains, and that
applies to private companies as well.
The trains are not over crewed. And the FRA has taken no position on
crew size.
Stephen Sprunk
2009-11-29 16:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAL
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Not as long as the unions and FRA insist on overcrewing trains, and that
applies to private companies as well.
The trains are not over crewed. And the FRA has taken no position on
crew size.
The FRA has indirectly made it extremely difficult to do OPTO, which has
been discussed many times here. This may or may not be deliberate; it's
possible that they simply make regulations assuming that union-mandated
two-person crews will exist without considering OPTO, but the effect is
the same.

In any event, I don't see how being a private company would in any way
reduce Amtrak's problems with crew size, regardless of source. The
exact same union and/or FRA problems afflict both.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Sancho Panza
2009-11-29 03:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
A typical trip is subsidized by about $50.
More like $30.
Does anybody have any actual numbers?
All you have to do is look at Amtrak's Annual Report, which is available
on their web site under "Reports & Documents". ("Investor Relations" is
the standard location, even for public agencies, but Amtrak has renamed
it since I last looked.)
Post by Bolwerk
Amtrak's operations are subsidized to the tune of around 32%. I guess
that means that for every $100 in fares sold, the government is kicking
in another $47 or so.
2008 Passenger revenue: $1,955,422,000
2008 Federal grants: $1,314,528,000
So, for every $100 in fares, the feds kick in another $67.22.
(That's 40.2% subsidy, FYI.)
And by definition that does not include the huge sums that states like New
Jersey and Maryland pay Amtrak annually for the, uh, privilege of operating
on the corridor.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
What's the average ticket cost?
$1,955,422,000 / 28,700,000 passengers = $68.13/passenger
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-29 04:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sancho Panza
And by definition that does not include the huge sums that states like New
Jersey and Maryland pay Amtrak annually for the, uh, privilege of operating
on the corridor.
"huge sums"??? The bulk of train movements on the Corridor are those
of commuter trains. Thus, the bulk of expenses, like power, trackage,
are for commuter trains.

On the NEC, Amtrak has had to pay, and pay dearly, to remediate
asbestos and PCBs numerous from properties not even involved with
Amtrak transportation only because Amtrak was the designated inheritor
of old railroad properties. Amtrak got stuck with the bill for old
abandoned railroad yards, even old factories.

Everywhere else those cleanup expenses would be borne by either the
private sector, or if the property was abandoned, by Superfund sites.

Because the infrastructure of the NEC was old, Amtrak had to pay to
upgrade it to meet modern legal requirements, such as ADA and EPA
rules. Adding elevators to places not designed for them ain't cheap,
esp old buildings.

Let's not forget the massive taxes private property owners in the NE
pay to support road services not covered by gasoline taxes. Contrary
to myth that a superhighway brings development, many old towns were
ruined by a new superhighway slicing it apart, and removing its
existing tax base.
r***@gmail.com
2009-11-29 04:48:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sancho Panza
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
A typical trip is subsidized by about $50.
More like $30.
Does anybody have any actual numbers?
All you have to do is look at Amtrak's Annual Report, which is available
on their web site under "Reports & Documents".  ("Investor Relations" is
the standard location, even for public agencies, but Amtrak has renamed
it since I last looked.)
Post by Bolwerk
Amtrak's operations are subsidized to the tune of around 32%.  I guess
that means that for every $100 in fares sold, the government is kicking
in another $47 or so.
2008 Passenger revenue: $1,955,422,000
2008 Federal grants: $1,314,528,000
So, for every $100 in fares, the feds kick in another $67.22.
(That's 40.2% subsidy, FYI.)
And by definition that does not include the huge sums that states like New
Jersey and Maryland pay Amtrak annually for the, uh, privilege of operating
on the corridor.
you realize Amtrak handles all of the maintainence on the nec

would it be your suggestion that the respective states take over their
sections of the nec and be responsible for maint

inc structures that are about 100 yrs old
g***@yahoo.com
2009-11-29 05:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
2008 Passenger revenue: $1,955,422,000
2008 Federal grants: $1,314,528,000
"Grants" can include a lot of different stuff though, not just financing
for operations.

The typical numbers I have seen in previous years show only about half of
the grant money going to fund actual operations. The other grants were
for items congress apparently couldn't live without, and had to dump money
into.

Be prepared for the numbers to get worse too. With the requirement to go
to automatic train stop for lines with passenger service, you can bet that
Amtrak will wind up paying for signal upgrades on thousands of miles of
track that have only one train per day.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
OTOH, Amtrak would have to start paying property taxes on the NEC if it
were a private business; currently it is exempt as a pseudo-government
entity. Even if they were turning a profit today, that additional
expense would surely sink them.
If Amtrak had to operate as a private business, the current corporation
would have to be liquidated, including paying off the shareholders. I
would assume that the NEC would be sold off in pieces to the states, or
some similar plan would be executed, in order to pay off the demands of
the particular shareholder that has been an obstacle in the past.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Not as long as the unions and FRA insist on overcrewing trains, and that
applies to private companies as well.
The most recent FRA ruling stated that they would not across the board ban
all one person crews. However, the unions are appealing the ruling.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Keep in mind that if Amtrak eliminated the biggest money-losers, that
would reduce demand (and increase losses) on other routes, snowballing
until it took down the entire network.
Due to network effects, the only way to survive is to _grow_ your way to
profitability. Shrinking a network _reduces_ its value.
The way I remember it, Amtrak's farebox recovery ratio was somewhat better
under Claytor (the figure I remember was in the 80% range. At that point
in time, Amtrak was getting enough financing to operate more routes (the
Pioneer, for example). However, as the financing was cut back over the
years since then, fewer trains have been operating, and thus the overall
operating ratio also dropped.

So, it isn't as if this is a theoretical thing. We have watched it happen
over the years with Amtrak. Repeated cutbacks in funding and cutting
routes that were deemed to be "unimportant" has actually reduced the
farebox recovery ratio, as best as I have been able to determine.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
AFAIK, there are a handful of other routes around the country that turn
an operating profit
I've never seen any reliable claims of such; AFAIK, Acela is the only one.
The one that I have seen that is sometimes listed as Amtrak's most
profitable train is the Auto-Train. Though, it should be noted that
originally operated as a private company, but failed in the 1970s. In the
end, it wound up getting deemed important enough for it to get swept into
Amtrak's lap. After significant investments in equipment, it can
apparently now support itself.
--
-Glennl
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam, and most e-mail sent to this address are simply lost in the vast mess.
Bolwerk
2009-11-29 19:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
Post by DockScience
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
A typical trip is subsidized by about $50.
More like $30.
Does anybody have any actual numbers?
All you have to do is look at Amtrak's Annual Report, which is available
on their web site under "Reports & Documents". ("Investor Relations" is
the standard location, even for public agencies, but Amtrak has renamed
it since I last looked.)
Post by Bolwerk
Amtrak's operations are subsidized to the tune of around 32%. I guess
that means that for every $100 in fares sold, the government is kicking
in another $47 or so.
2008 Passenger revenue: $1,955,422,000
2008 Federal grants: $1,314,528,000
So, for every $100 in fares, the feds kick in another $67.22.
(That's 40.2% subsidy, FYI.)
Post by Bolwerk
What's the average ticket cost?
$1,955,422,000 / 28,700,000 passengers = $68.13/passenger
Post by Bolwerk
Post by DockScience
Actually it's $100/trip if one takes into account that the Northeast
Corridor actually generates profits and the subsidies instead go to
all the other non-profitable routes.
The Acela Express pays for its own operations, but IIRC the margin is
rather small. I'm not sure the other NE corridor services can even say
that much though.
Only Acela covers its operating cost; all the other NEC trains lose
money, just like the LD and regional trains around the rest of the country.
IIRC, Acela also pays for its share of the capital costs.
Post by Bolwerk
Post by DockScience
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a business, it would only operate
Bos-Ny-Washington and there would be no other routes.
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a private business, it would be
allowed to discount its rates to maximize profit (minimize loss?),
Yes, it could.
OTOH, Amtrak would have to start paying property taxes on the NEC if it
were a private business; currently it is exempt as a pseudo-government
entity. Even if they were turning a profit today, that additional
expense would surely sink them.
Interesting thought. Nothing need stop the government from maintaining
the NEC and charging railroads to use it though. It's more
"business-like" than the roads system.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
reduce its labor overhead,
Not as long as the unions and FRA insist on overcrewing trains, and that
applies to private companies as well.
Post by Bolwerk
invest in potentially profitable routes,
Investing implies they have cash or credit to do so, and Amtrak does not.
Yes, of course.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
and divest itself of unprofitable routes
You mean all of them? There wouldn't be much of a railroad left.
Keep in mind that if Amtrak eliminated the biggest money-losers, that
would reduce demand (and increase losses) on other routes, snowballing
until it took down the entire network.
Due to network effects, the only way to survive is to _grow_ your way to
profitability. Shrinking a network _reduces_ its value.
I realize that, but surely they have some way to measure operating
leverage. Some routes could in theory boost productivity while others
don't.

Actually, the Amtrak Monthly Performance Report for Sept. 2008 seems to
suggest they do this.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
--- and it probably wouldn't be paying railroad pensions for people
who never worked for it.
All railroads, both public and private, are paying for those pensions.
Post by Bolwerk
AFAIK, there are a handful of other routes around the country that turn
an operating profit
I've never seen any reliable claims of such; AFAIK, Acela is the only one.
I thought I saw some here, actually. I could be mistaken.

(I believe the NE corridor service on NJ Transit is profitable, but it's
not Amtrak.)
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
and a few more that come pretty close.
Such as?
http://www.subsidyscope.com/transportation/amtrak/table/

It appears Chicago-St. Louis, Washington-Newport News, and the
Carolinian are all profitable before factoring in depreciation and
other, I presume non-traceable, overhead costs. You can decide for
yourself what else comes pretty close.

I expected better from Empire Service.

The URL links to a PDF of the Amtrak Monthly Performance Report for
Sept. 2008. (I linked to the above because it seems accurate and the
URL to the PDF is really long, but the PDF is much more detailed.)
Stephen Sprunk
2009-11-29 20:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
Post by DockScience
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a business, it would only operate
Bos-Ny-Washington and there would be no other routes.
If Amtrak were forced to operate as a private business, it would be
allowed to discount its rates to maximize profit (minimize loss?),
Yes, it could.
OTOH, Amtrak would have to start paying property taxes on the NEC if it
were a private business; currently it is exempt as a pseudo-government
entity. Even if they were turning a profit today, that additional
expense would surely sink them.
Interesting thought. Nothing need stop the government from maintaining
the NEC and charging railroads to use it though.
I would have no objection to the government owning _all_ rail lines and
charging track usage fees to private TOCs. That's how it works in
Germany, AIUI, and it seems to work well there.

However, for better or worse, US RRs (and the FRA) are stuck on the idea
of railroads owning the infrastructure _and_ operating the trains on it,
with various private agreements for "trackage rights" and "haulage rights".
Post by Bolwerk
It's more "business-like" than the roads system.
I see such an arrangement being very similar to an all-toll highway system.
Post by Bolwerk
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
and divest itself of unprofitable routes
You mean all of them? There wouldn't be much of a railroad left.
Keep in mind that if Amtrak eliminated the biggest money-losers, that
would reduce demand (and increase losses) on other routes, snowballing
until it took down the entire network.
Due to network effects, the only way to survive is to _grow_ your way to
profitability. Shrinking a network _reduces_ its value.
I realize that, but surely they have some way to measure operating
leverage. Some routes could in theory boost productivity while others
don't.
Actually, the Amtrak Monthly Performance Report for Sept. 2008 seems to
suggest they do this.
To a degree. Thanks for the pointer, as I hadn't scrolled down far
enough to notice that report and that it had per-route figures.
Post by Bolwerk
(I believe the NE corridor service on NJ Transit is profitable, but it's
not Amtrak.)
Cite? Even if true, one must wonder how much of that is due to NJT not
having to cover the entire infrastructure cost themselves for that
route. Granted, Amtrak isn't allowed to subsidize commuter operations
per se, but they _are_ picking up part of the cost that NJT (and MARC,
SEPTA, MBTA, VRE, etc.) would have to pay if Amtrak were to cease to exist.

Amortizing fixed costs across more trains means lower per-train costs.
For a single operator, you have to balance that vs. increased operating
costs, but when another operator is paying those operating costs the
picture changes...
Post by Bolwerk
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Bolwerk
and a few more that come pretty close.
Such as?
http://www.subsidyscope.com/transportation/amtrak/table/
It appears Chicago-St. Louis, Washington-Newport News, and the
Carolinian are all profitable before factoring in depreciation and
other, I presume non-traceable, overhead costs. You can decide for
yourself what else comes pretty close.
The latest report available, Aug 2009, shows that only the
Washington-Newport News and "Special Trains" regional services and none
of the LD services makes a net revenue contribution even _before_
indirect costs ("infrastructure maintenance and system costs"),
depreciation, and interest.

Given that depreciation (use of capital assets) and interest (use of
cash) consume 29.1% of Amtrak's total revenue, and indirect costs add
another 25.9%, one can't simply ignore those numbers.

Unfortunately, Amtrak doesn't break down depreciation by route, probably
because they switch rolling stock around too much for it to be feasible.
Interest can't really be allocated to any route.
Post by Bolwerk
I expected better from Empire Service.
Yes; it's much worse than the typical regional route and worse than even
four LD routes.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Philip Nasadowski
2009-11-29 21:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
I would have no objection to the government owning _all_ rail lines and
charging track usage fees to private TOCs. That's how it works in
Germany, AIUI, and it seems to work well there.
My only objection is that the feds can barely keep the NEC functional -
having the rest of the system under their thumb might not really be an
improvement from what we've got now. They'll also be subject to freight
lobbying (both internal and external), thus there's nothing to say we'd
get a situation like Germany quickly, or ever. The Germans maintain
their track a hell of a lot better than us, they have much better
regulations in regard to passenger operations, and they seem willing to
improve things, and can control costs a bit better than us.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-30 04:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Nasadowski
My only objection is that the feds can barely keep the NEC functional -
Today, on a busy travel day, as best as I could tell from the station,
the NEC was going pretty well.

However, there were lots of nasty highway backups. While in NJ rail
passengers were comfortable speeding on their way, NJ Tpk motorists
were stuck in massive backups at several chokepoints. I heard I-95
was lousy elsewhere, too.
r***@gmail.com
2009-11-30 04:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Philip Nasadowski
My only objection is that the feds can barely keep the NEC functional -
Today, on a busy travel day, as best as I could tell from the station,
the NEC was going pretty well.
However, there were lots of nasty highway backups.  While in NJ rail
passengers were comfortable speeding on their way, NJ Tpk motorists
were stuck in massive backups at several chokepoints.  I heard I-95
was lousy elsewhere, too.
pretty much every day for the last two weeks all three NY airports had
about 1 hour flight delays, some longer
John Albert
2009-11-30 04:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Stephen wrote:
"I would have no objection to the government owning _all_
rail lines and
charging track usage fees to private TOCs. That's how it
works in
Germany, AIUI, and it seems to work well there"

This is America, Stephen, and I think it's safe to say that
many, if not most Americans don't really care much for
socialism - which is what you just described.

An ugly little concept we have called "private property",
combined with another ugly little concept called "capitalism".

Long may they both exist!

- John
r***@gmail.com
2009-11-30 04:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Albert
"I would have no objection to the government owning _all_
rail lines and
charging track usage fees to private TOCs.  That's how it
works in
Germany, AIUI, and it seems to work well there"
This is America, Stephen, and I think it's safe to say that
many, if not most Americans don't really care much for
socialism - which is what you just described.
An ugly little concept we have called "private property",
combined with another ugly little concept called "capitalism".
Long may they both exist!
- John
and they both work so very well

how much have you lost in your retirement acct?

how much has the value of your house gone down?

correct me if I am wrong, but it seems you have a govt pension, at
least partially

and govt provided health ins

and those are not the marks of socialism?
John Albert
2009-11-30 18:43:55 UTC
Permalink
RE:
"and they both work so very well"

Indeed. Even the [formerly Red] Chinese seem to think so
these days.

"how much have you lost in your retirement acct?"

Not much. I saw what was coming, and shifted the assets of
my 401k from stocks into more stable funds (money market).
Not "making" much, but not "losing", either. A primary tenet
of investing is to "protect your assets". Actually, after I
retire, I'm going to liquidate my 401k, 100%. Very afraid
that the socialists in power (who are just one step from
being flat-out Marxists) will try to seize 401ks, IRA's, and
other [currently] privately-owned assets.

"how much has the value of your house gone down?"

Considerably, actually - but less to do with the "markets"
than the fact that we've had a "Mexican invasion" in my
town, and the house next to me has been converted into a
literal "Mexican hotel". Blame both the democrats and the
country-club Republicans on that. My solution: identify
illegals, round 'em up, put them in railcars and run them to
the border. I'll run the train and donate my professional
skills free of charge for that.

"correct me if I am wrong, but it seems you have a govt
pension, at least partially"

Not in Social Security. Railroad Retirement is indeed a
creature of national legislation. But the lion's share of
payments are coming from privately-owned companies, and from
the individual workers.

"and govt provided health ins"

Nope. Private insurance through my employer. The major
struggle in the USA right now _is_ to stop "government
provided health insurance" - i.e., which would lead to a
"single payer" system. The majority of Americans are opposed
to this.

"and those are not the marks of socialism?"

Nope. That was your assumption.

- John
Stephen Sprunk
2009-11-30 20:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by John Albert
An ugly little concept we have called "private property",
combined with another ugly little concept called "capitalism".
Long may they both exist!
and they both work so very well
They're the least-bad of the known alternatives, in most cases--but not
all. They both have known failure modes, which is why we use other
models in those cases.
Post by r***@gmail.com
how much have you lost in your retirement acct?
Nothing. I was down a bit last summer, but my account has now grown
_well_ past its value before the recession started. I'm up around 35%
so far this year. If you've lost money, you really need to invest in
some money-management classes.
Post by r***@gmail.com
how much has the value of your house gone down?
Not a dime; it's gone up about 2% this year, as it does every year.
Post by r***@gmail.com
correct me if I am wrong, but it seems you have a govt pension, at
least partially
Who (legally) in the US doesn't? We're all required* to participate in
Social Security, even if we don't want to, except for certain public
employees that are on state pensions.

(* Technically, a US citizen can legally refuse to give their SSN to
their employer, who then cannot legally deduct FICA, but virtually
nobody knows that and even fewer are willing to try it because they're
scared of the IRS, even though case law has established it's perfectly
legal. Even the SSA will tell you that, if you bother to ask; they just
don't publicize it.)
Post by r***@gmail.com
and govt provided health ins
Who (legally) in the US doesn't? We are all required* to participate in
Medicare.

(* See above.)
Post by r***@gmail.com
and those are not the marks of socialism?
I don't see how any of the above questions are relevant. Socialism is
defined as workers owning the means of production, and none of the above
programs can be legitimately categorized as such.

OTOH, the government bailout of (and equity in) the auto and banking
sectors may qualify, but only in loose terms since it's not specifically
the auto workers and bankers that now own the auto companies and banks.

If you want real socialism in action, look at the tech sector, where a
significant fraction of employees' compensation comes in the form of
stock in their employer. And, lo and behold, that is the wealthiest,
most productive sector of the US economy, even after the bubble (caused
by stupid VCs) burst in 2002.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-30 04:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Albert
This is America, Stephen, and I think it's safe to say that
many, if not most Americans don't really care much for
socialism - which is what you just described.
An ugly little concept we have called "private property",
combined with another ugly little concept called "capitalism".
While Americans may initially prefer capitalism, they'll take
socialism when capitalism fails.

Highways and bridges used to be privately owned, it was a failure, so
the govt took them over. There was a privately owned bridge in NJ
that failed and the state had to take it over and fix it up not long
ago.

Capitalism's failures have not made it as attractive as it once was,
and its apologists have lost credibility.

Perhaps capitalists ought to focus on restoring the lost free markets,
such as by fighting all the mergers and acquistions. We all know the
UP merger was a disaster, and they'll still trying to sort out the CSX
and NS acquisition of Conrail, something that never should've been
allowed to happen.
HAL
2009-11-30 14:03:48 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
While Americans may initially prefer capitalism, they'll take
socialism when capitalism fails.
That sums it up nicely.

And Capitalism will have failures because the greed that is inherent in
Capitalism always leads to excesses that burst.
John Galt
2009-11-30 14:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAL
In article
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
While Americans may initially prefer capitalism, they'll take
socialism when capitalism fails.
That sums it up nicely.
And Capitalism will have failures because the greed that is inherent in
Capitalism always leads to excesses that burst.
That's not a "failure"; that's a key characteristic of how capitalism
works, and if you understand it, you profit from the bubbles whilst
avoiding the worst of the bursts. (Also, if you regulate so that you
eliminate the bursts, you'll also eliminate the bubbles.)

Also, greed is a characteristic of the human, not capitalism. Highly
regulated economies tend to be bureaucratic and
somewhat-to-highly-corrupt for just that reason. If you remove the
opportunity to practice greed from the economic system, the human will
just find some other way to express that trait (and you will probably
like what they do even less than you like capitalism).

What you call a "failure" is exactly why capitalists like it. :-)

JG
HAL
2009-11-30 14:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Galt
Also, greed is a characteristic of the human, not capitalism. Highly
regulated economies tend to be bureaucratic and
somewhat-to-highly-corrupt for just that reason. If you remove the
opportunity to practice greed from the economic system, the human will
just find some other way to express that trait (and you will probably
like what they do even less than you like capitalism).
Greed is not inherent. It is caused by scarcity. Eliminate scarcity,
have enough available for everyone, and greed would eventually
disappear.
John Galt
2009-11-30 14:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAL
Post by John Galt
Also, greed is a characteristic of the human, not capitalism. Highly
regulated economies tend to be bureaucratic and
somewhat-to-highly-corrupt for just that reason. If you remove the
opportunity to practice greed from the economic system, the human will
just find some other way to express that trait (and you will probably
like what they do even less than you like capitalism).
Greed is not inherent.
Of course it is. Greed is simply the desire to attain goods or services
over and above what one needs. The minute you want to buy your wife or
kid a Christmas present that they could live without, that's greed. It's
just not of the same scope as the more conspicuous examples of consumption.

It is caused by scarcity. Eliminate scarcity,
Post by HAL
have enough available for everyone, and greed would eventually
disappear.
The only time that sort of economy has ever been achieved is on Star
Trek. Besides, scarcity (like greed) is a subjective perception, not a
concrete definable term. What you see as "greed" on the part of another
may very well be a "necessity" in their frame of reference.

At the end of the day, unless the example of greed is so egregious that
all would agree, the only ones who can define the term are priests and
philosophers. If people cannot agree on what is greed (and what is
scarcity) and what is not, then one cannot possible use those metrics to
determine public policy.

But, at the end of the day, it's clear that you're not a socialist,
really. You're a utopian.

Utopians die unhappy.

JG
HAL
2009-11-30 15:12:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Galt
But, at the end of the day, it's clear that you're not a socialist,
really. You're a utopian.
Not really.
John Albert
2009-11-30 18:49:53 UTC
Permalink
HAL wrote:
"Greed is not inherent. It is caused by scarcity. Eliminate
scarcity,
have enough available for everyone, and greed would eventually
disappear."

Socialism cannot eliminate scarcity.

Socialism merely attempts to spread existing wealth.

Capitalism _creates_ new wealth.

Inevitably, when those who create wealth see it being taken
from them and given to others, they will create less of it
(and thus have less taken).

Eventually, the pool of wealth from which socialism sips
begins to run low. And hence, what was an attempt to spread
wealth ends up spreading misery.

The continual refrain of socialists, marxists, communists,
you-name-it, is "this time, we're going to do it right!"

And then they do just what they did before all over again.

- John
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-30 19:44:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Albert
Socialism merely attempts to spread existing wealth.
True.

However, sometimes spreading the existing wealth encourages
development of new wealth. For example, after WW II the govt passed
the GI Bill which was essentially socialist. But the bill enabled
veterans to go to school and improve their skills and a great many
did. The whole country benefitted from that growth in skill levels.
In addition, the GI Bill gave veterans low cost mortgages which
spurred the housing industry, again stimulating the economy.

I would dare say the country was ultimately better off as a result,
despite the tax costs of the measure.
Post by John Albert
Capitalism _creates_ new wealth.
Not always. There have been numerous periods for over 100 years where
the financial markets were simply _trading_ money with each other
rather than actually _investing_ money into real ventures that
create wealth. Since such trading is usually a 'house of cards',
often those periods resulted in a nasty crash and recession. People
with legitimate business goals would be unable to get financing to
develop a business after the crash.
Post by John Albert
Inevitably, when those who create wealth see it being taken
from them and given to others, they will create less of it
(and thus have less taken).
Not true.

If the confiscation is at a very high amount, as it is in some
European countries, there will be a discouragement (like in France,
which had a lousy economy long before the recession hit). But paying
taxes in the U.S. has generally not deterred investment, nor has
reducing taxes spurred investment as much as free market advocates
claim.

In some decaying American cities with high local taxes, it is a
problem.
Post by John Albert
Eventually, the pool of wealth from which socialism sips
begins to run low. And hence, what was an attempt to spread
wealth ends up spreading misery.
The continual refrain of socialists, marxists, communists,
you-name-it, is "this time, we're going to do it right!"
And then they do just what they did before all over again.
- John
Michael Coburn
2009-11-30 23:46:50 UTC
Permalink
"Greed is not inherent. It is caused by scarcity. Eliminate scarcity,
have enough available for everyone, and greed would eventually
disappear."
Socialism cannot eliminate scarcity.
Scarcity, as defined by economists, cannot be eliminated.
Socialism merely attempts to spread existing wealth.
Social Democracy, in its current genre, is primarily a system of
insurance and counter cyclical macro econ.
Capitalism _creates_ new wealth.
Technological innovation and knowledge are the primary new wealth. This
has little to do with land and natural resource ownership (and the state
supported "right" of Wall Street to effectively coin money). Such state
enforced privileges are not really a part of true "capitalism". Neither
land nor fiat/bank money are "capital" in the economic sense of the term.
Inevitably, when those who create wealth see it being taken from them
and given to others, they will create less of it (and thus have less
taken).
That is a rightarded myth in that most true wealth is created out of pure
curiosity and a lust for notoriety and fame. The glory of achievement
cannot actually be "taken from them and given to others". Newton did not
"patent" fluction.
Eventually, the pool of wealth from which socialism sips begins to run
low. And hence, what was an attempt to spread wealth ends up spreading
misery.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Religious pig shit spread by the purchased practitioners of Republican
fascism.
The continual refrain of socialists, marxists, communists, you-name-it,
is "this time, we're going to do it right!"
And then they do just what they did before all over again.
Sounds like the continual refrain of bubble blowing Republicans to me.
And the results are the same each and every time. "What we have here is
a re-enactment of the miracle of the roaring twenties". Most sane people
would come to the conclusion that "Social Democracy" is a more rational
mode of operation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy -----------------

"... modern social democracy has deviated from socialism, and supports
the idea of a mixed economy which incorporates elements of both socialism
and capitalism.[2] Social democrats aim to reform capitalism
democratically through state regulation and the creation of programs that
work to counteract or remove the social injustice and inefficiencies they
see as inherent in capitalism. A product of this effort has been the
modern democratic welfare state. This approach significantly differs from
traditional socialism, which aims to replace the capitalist system
entirely with a new economic system characterized by either state or
direct worker ownership of the means of production.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Programs such as unemployment insurance, social security, Medicare and
the like currently define the "welfare state". The Cadillac owning
"Welfare Queen" does not.
--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson
Poetic Justice
2009-11-30 15:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAL
In article
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
While Americans may initially prefer capitalism, they'll take
socialism when capitalism fails.
That sums it up nicely.
And Capitalism will have failures because the greed that is inherent in
Capitalism always leads to excesses that burst.
Socialism has already failed..... This crash was a government created
crash. Socialism always fails, when Americans read history and discover
that Socialism has never worked(i.e. Russia, Cuba...) they will again
respect Capitalism as the only choice.
Jishnu Mukerji
2009-11-30 17:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Poetic Justice
Socialism has already failed..... This crash was a government created
crash. Socialism always fails, when Americans read history and discover
that Socialism has never worked(i.e. Russia, Cuba...) they will again
respect Capitalism as the only choice.
And yet the one thing that supports Americas favorite pastime called
driving, the Interstate Highway System is about as Socialist a venture
as one gets. No country has yet managed to build something like the
Interstate highways System depending purely on Capitalism with no
government intervention. Just like pure Socialism is an utopian concept
so is pure Capitalism, and both tend to fail when one proceeds too far
away from reality towards utopia.
John Galt
2009-11-30 17:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jishnu Mukerji
Post by Poetic Justice
Socialism has already failed..... This crash was a government created
crash. Socialism always fails, when Americans read history and discover
that Socialism has never worked(i.e. Russia, Cuba...) they will again
respect Capitalism as the only choice.
And yet the one thing that supports Americas favorite pastime called
driving, the Interstate Highway System is about as Socialist a venture
as one gets.
That's quite ridiculous.

The interstate highway system is infrastructure. No individual, no
matter how capitalist, libertarian, socialist, or communist, denies that
this is a proper role of government. (Well, I suppose you might find an
anarchist or two, but even they have to drive.)

Your comment is a misconception that we're seeing more often nowadays
--- that *all* government ventures are "socialist." It is an attempt to
redefine the term (which means, btw, that the government OWNS THE MEANS
OF PRODUCTION) to the broader scope of government action, so that
socialists can then say "see, we have socialism already, and it's good".

No country has yet managed to build something like the
Post by Jishnu Mukerji
Interstate highways System depending purely on Capitalism with no
government intervention.
And nor will they. A completely private system would ignore servicing
low-traffic routes and compete on high traffic routes only. That's where
the market incentive would be. That's why this is INFRASTRUCTURE which
stands outside of political ideologies. It's necessary and there's no
market incentive to create a system that would be as pervasive in its
reach.

Here's another example: FedEx and UPS would love for the USPS to go away
so they could compete for that business. There's little question that
these organizations would run far more efficiently than the USPS. But,
part of how they would do that would be to cut rural delivery (which is
unprofitable by its nature) to one or two days a week. So, the
government provides the services, which, because there is no market
incentive to compete *with the same reach*, is INFRASTRUCTURE.

JG


Just like pure Socialism is an utopian concept
Post by Jishnu Mukerji
so is pure Capitalism, and both tend to fail when one proceeds too far
away from reality towards utopia.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-30 18:33:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Galt
Post by Jishnu Mukerji
And yet the one thing that supports Americas favorite pastime called
driving, the Interstate Highway System is about as Socialist a venture
as one gets.
That's quite ridiculous.
The interstate highway system is infrastructure. No individual, no
matter how capitalist, libertarian, socialist, or communist, denies that
this is a proper role of government. (Well, I suppose you might find an
anarchist or two, but even they have to drive.)
Wrong.

First, capitalism and socialism are about who owns the infrastructure.

Secondly, in the U.S., infrastructure is typically owned by private
entities. A shopping mall or a factory is developed by people who
raise 'capital' from investors to build it; then they run it.

Third, there is no technical reason whatsoever why the private sector
could develop and operate highways just like they do shopping centers
and factories and office buildings. Of course, private entities would
have to pay property taxes on the land they use and business taxes on
their profits, and investors would be taxed for their gains. Publicly
financed highways are totally tax exempt, and early govt highway
builders went to a great deal of trouble to secure that tax exemption
(see "Empire on the Hudson").
Post by John Galt
Your comment is a misconception that we're seeing more often nowadays
--- that *all* government ventures are "socialist." It is an attempt to
redefine the term (which means, btw, that the government OWNS THE MEANS
OF PRODUCTION) to the broader scope of government action, so that
socialists can then say "see, we have socialism already, and it's good".
Transportation is part of the "means of production".
Post by John Galt
. . . A completely private system would ignore servicing
low-traffic routes and compete on high traffic routes only. That's where
the market incentive would be. That's why this is INFRASTRUCTURE which
stands outside of political ideologies. It's necessary and there's no
market incentive to create a system that would be as pervasive in its
reach.
Which is why we have the government running passenger trains.
John Galt
2009-11-30 18:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willms
Post by John Galt
Post by Jishnu Mukerji
And yet the one thing that supports Americas favorite pastime called
driving, the Interstate Highway System is about as Socialist a venture
as one gets.
That's quite ridiculous.
The interstate highway system is infrastructure. No individual, no
matter how capitalist, libertarian, socialist, or communist, denies that
this is a proper role of government. (Well, I suppose you might find an
anarchist or two, but even they have to drive.)
Wrong.
Not wrong.
Post by Willms
First, capitalism and socialism are about who owns the infrastructure.
No. It's about who owns the MEANS OF PRODUCTION. These are two entirely
different matters.

Since the rest of your post is based on an incorrect premise, there's no
point in commenting further.

JG
Post by Willms
Secondly, in the U.S., infrastructure is typically owned by private
entities. A shopping mall or a factory is developed by people who
raise 'capital' from investors to build it; then they run it.
Third, there is no technical reason whatsoever why the private sector
could develop and operate highways just like they do shopping centers
and factories and office buildings. Of course, private entities would
have to pay property taxes on the land they use and business taxes on
their profits, and investors would be taxed for their gains. Publicly
financed highways are totally tax exempt, and early govt highway
builders went to a great deal of trouble to secure that tax exemption
(see "Empire on the Hudson").
Post by John Galt
Your comment is a misconception that we're seeing more often nowadays
--- that *all* government ventures are "socialist." It is an attempt to
redefine the term (which means, btw, that the government OWNS THE MEANS
OF PRODUCTION) to the broader scope of government action, so that
socialists can then say "see, we have socialism already, and it's good".
Transportation is part of the "means of production".
Post by John Galt
. . . A completely private system would ignore servicing
low-traffic routes and compete on high traffic routes only. That's where
the market incentive would be. That's why this is INFRASTRUCTURE which
stands outside of political ideologies. It's necessary and there's no
market incentive to create a system that would be as pervasive in its
reach.
Which is why we have the government running passenger trains.
Stephen Sprunk
2009-11-30 20:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Galt
Post by Jishnu Mukerji
Post by Poetic Justice
Socialism has already failed..... This crash was a government created
crash. Socialism always fails, when Americans read history and discover
that Socialism has never worked(i.e. Russia, Cuba...) they will again
respect Capitalism as the only choice.
And yet the one thing that supports Americas favorite pastime called
driving, the Interstate Highway System is about as Socialist a venture
as one gets.
...
Your comment is a misconception that we're seeing more often nowadays
--- that *all* government ventures are "socialist." It is an attempt to
redefine the term (which means, btw, that the government OWNS THE MEANS
OF PRODUCTION) to the broader scope of government action, so that
socialists can then say "see, we have socialism already, and it's good".
I think that attempt at redefinition is coming more from the right in
their efforts to paint all government activity as "socialism" and thus
Evil(tm).

There aren't very many true socialists in the US, at least not that the
media pays any attention to. We're so far to the right on the world
political spectrum that even our "left" would be right-wing extremists
in most countries--not that the media (or our right wing) ever mentions
that. It's barely even mentioned in _college_ poli sci classes unless
that's your major.
Post by John Galt
Here's another example: FedEx and UPS would love for the USPS to go away
so they could compete for that business. There's little question that
these organizations would run far more efficiently than the USPS. But,
part of how they would do that would be to cut rural delivery (which is
unprofitable by its nature) to one or two days a week. So, the
government provides the services, which, because there is no market
incentive to compete *with the same reach*, is INFRASTRUCTURE.
IMHO, the postal service is not "infrastructure". One might argue it's
a natural monopoly, but that's as far as I could go without a more
complete argument.

The roads the postal service uses, though, are certainly infrastructure.
In fact, it is the "post roads" clause in the Constitution that
allegedly gave Congress the authority to fund highways in the first
place. And pretty much _every_ public road gets at least one mail
vehicle now and then--which is very different from what I think the
framers had intended. (Even more dubious: post "roads" in the sky as
justification for funding airports and airlines.)

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
John Galt
2009-11-30 21:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by John Galt
Post by Jishnu Mukerji
Post by Poetic Justice
Socialism has already failed..... This crash was a government created
crash. Socialism always fails, when Americans read history and discover
that Socialism has never worked(i.e. Russia, Cuba...) they will again
respect Capitalism as the only choice.
And yet the one thing that supports Americas favorite pastime called
driving, the Interstate Highway System is about as Socialist a venture
as one gets.
...
Your comment is a misconception that we're seeing more often nowadays
--- that *all* government ventures are "socialist." It is an attempt to
redefine the term (which means, btw, that the government OWNS THE MEANS
OF PRODUCTION) to the broader scope of government action, so that
socialists can then say "see, we have socialism already, and it's good".
I think that attempt at redefinition is coming more from the right in
their efforts to paint all government activity as "socialism" and thus
Evil(tm).
I think that occurs as well.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
There aren't very many true socialists in the US, at least not that the
media pays any attention to. We're so far to the right on the world
political spectrum that even our "left" would be right-wing extremists
in most countries--not that the media (or our right wing) ever mentions
that. It's barely even mentioned in _college_ poli sci classes unless
that's your major.
Quite right. If you look at a broader scale (www.politicalcompass.com)
it shows some 95% of all american politicians in the right-of-center
quadrant, leaning statist.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by John Galt
Here's another example: FedEx and UPS would love for the USPS to go away
so they could compete for that business. There's little question that
these organizations would run far more efficiently than the USPS. But,
part of how they would do that would be to cut rural delivery (which is
unprofitable by its nature) to one or two days a week. So, the
government provides the services, which, because there is no market
incentive to compete *with the same reach*, is INFRASTRUCTURE.
IMHO, the postal service is not "infrastructure". One might argue it's
a natural monopoly, but that's as far as I could go without a more
complete argument.
I would submit that the shipment of materials in limited quantities is
indeed necessary infrastructure for the development of small business.
OTherwise, you limit entrepeneurism because your larger private shipment
firms charge high rates for small shipments.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
The roads the postal service uses, though, are certainly infrastructure.
In fact, it is the "post roads" clause in the Constitution that
allegedly gave Congress the authority to fund highways in the first
place. And pretty much _every_ public road gets at least one mail
vehicle now and then--which is very different from what I think the
framers had intended. (Even more dubious: post "roads" in the sky as
justification for funding airports and airlines.)
Quite so.

JG
Stephen Sprunk
2009-11-30 23:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Galt
Post by Stephen Sprunk
There aren't very many true socialists in the US, at least not that the
media pays any attention to. We're so far to the right on the world
political spectrum that even our "left" would be right-wing extremists
in most countries--not that the media (or our right wing) ever mentions
that. It's barely even mentioned in _college_ poli sci classes unless
that's your major.
Quite right. If you look at a broader scale (www.politicalcompass.com)
it shows some 95% of all american politicians in the right-of-center
quadrant, leaning statist.
I think you mean politicalcompass.org.

(And, contrary to what Petey thinks, I'm solidly in the left-libertarian
quadrant.)
Post by John Galt
Post by Stephen Sprunk
IMHO, the postal service is not "infrastructure". One might argue it's
a natural monopoly, but that's as far as I could go without a more
complete argument.
I would submit that the shipment of materials in limited quantities is
indeed necessary infrastructure for the development of small business.
OTherwise, you limit entrepeneurism because your larger private shipment
firms charge high rates for small shipments.
Some services (e.g. the post) are clearly important, but that doesn't
make that service "infrastructure". To me, "infrastructure" is the
lowest separable layer, upon which "services" (possibly monopolies,
possibly competitive) are built, and cannot realistically be duplicated.
Most services actually make use of multiple infrastructures.

For instance, below the USPS (which even has "service" in its name) one
will find the roads, electricity, etc., and some of its functions have
been duplicated (e.g. by FedEx and UPS), so it cannot possibly be an
infrastructure itself. OTOH, there is really no layer below the roads,
and it's not feasible to build a duplicate road system, so roads _are_
infrastructure.

To drag this back on topic, railway tracks are infrastructure, but train
operations are a service.

I have no general objection to the government providing infrastructure;
I _do_ object to government providing services unless (a) it has been
proven that no private interest will do so and (b) either (1) the cost
is borne only by the consumers of that service or (2) the _vast_
majority of the population will consume it.

(One might have noticed that my definition of infrastructure is pretty
close to that of a "natural monopoly". This is not accidental, nor are
the corner cases where the two don't exactly match up.)

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Poetic Justice
2009-11-30 17:29:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jishnu Mukerji
Post by Poetic Justice
Socialism has already failed..... This crash was a government created
crash. Socialism always fails, when Americans read history and discover
that Socialism has never worked(i.e. Russia, Cuba...) they will again
respect Capitalism as the only choice.
And yet the one thing that supports Americas favorite pastime called
driving, the Interstate Highway System is about as Socialist a venture
as one gets. No country has yet managed to build something like the
Interstate highways System depending purely on Capitalism with no
government intervention. Just like pure Socialism is an utopian concept
so is pure Capitalism, and both tend to fail when one proceeds too far
away from reality towards utopia.
The Rail roads were built and owned and run by Capitalist. While the
Rail roads served a purpose, and paid their way, the interstate has
served to allow for "white flight" from the cities to the suburbs. The
interstate created the option of segregation and caused the death of
inner cities and todays failed economics of the large cities.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-30 18:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Socialism has already failed.....  This crash was a government created
crash.  Socialism always fails, when Americans read history and discover
that Socialism has never worked(i.e. Russia, Cuba...)  they will again
respect Capitalism as the only choice.
As others have mentioned, the U.S. has neither a pure capitalist nor
pure socialist system. It is a blend. Most of the debate is over the
proportions of the blend.

Only extremist 'true believers' think we have a pure system of one or
the other.

The recent Wall Street crash was a failure of _both_ the public and
private sectors. In essence, the private sector fraudulently
overvalued securities it sold, and the govt failed to regulate that as
it used to do. The govt had cut back on the SEC, FDIC, and other
regulatory units, and the private sector milked it. For a while,
everyone had a great time, and no one wanted to be the party pooper
and stop it, but then the big bubble burst.

Thank goodness we have the safety nets from the Great Depression,
otherwise today's recession would be a nasty depression.
John Galt
2009-11-30 18:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by Poetic Justice
Socialism has already failed..... This crash was a government created
crash. Socialism always fails, when Americans read history and discover
that Socialism has never worked(i.e. Russia, Cuba...) they will again
respect Capitalism as the only choice.
As others have mentioned, the U.S. has neither a pure capitalist nor
pure socialist system. It is a blend. Most of the debate is over the
proportions of the blend.
Only extremist 'true believers' think we have a pure system of one or
the other.
The recent Wall Street crash was a failure of _both_ the public and
private sectors. In essence, the private sector fraudulently
overvalued securities it sold, and the govt failed to regulate that as
it used to do.
Not quite. Wall Street managed to figure out how to separate reward from
risk. There never was a regulation that would have prevented this,
unless you go back to the pre-LBJ days when mortgage securitization was
illegal.

The govt had cut back on the SEC, FDIC, and other
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
regulatory units, and the private sector milked it.
The government actually encouraged the sale and underwriting of junk
paper, to be more exact. Again, there weren't any regulations that were
voided that would have prevented what occured.

JG


For a while,
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
everyone had a great time, and no one wanted to be the party pooper
and stop it, but then the big bubble burst.
Thank goodness we have the safety nets from the Great Depression,
otherwise today's recession would be a nasty depression.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-30 19:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Galt
Not quite. Wall Street managed to figure out how to separate reward from
risk. There never was a regulation that would have prevented this,
unless you go back to the pre-LBJ days when mortgage securitization was
illegal.
Fraud is fraud, and misrepresenting the value of a security is fraud.

Wall Street firms also have a fiduciary responsibility of due
diligence to understand what they are reselling to other customers.

What Wall Street did was creatively spread around the irresponsibility
so thin that it was difficult to assign criminal responsibility to any
one person or organization.
Post by John Galt
The government actually encouraged the sale and underwriting of junk
paper, to be more exact. Again, there weren't any regulations that were
voided that would have prevented what occured.
That is true. There were elements in the govt that actively encourage
unqualified buyers to get mortgages they couldn't afford. Sadly,
those elements have not been called to account as they should've been
(ie naming names). They claimed they wanted more people to have
homes, but they failed to figure out how people would pay for them.

Which is why I said the failure was the fault of both public and
private sectors.

The govt, over the years, DID reduce the ability of the FDIC and SEC
to execute their mission, making it easier for crap to slip through in
violation of long standing regulations.
John Galt
2009-11-30 19:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by John Galt
Not quite. Wall Street managed to figure out how to separate reward from
risk. There never was a regulation that would have prevented this,
unless you go back to the pre-LBJ days when mortgage securitization was
illegal.
Fraud is fraud, and misrepresenting the value of a security is fraud.
Granted. The point here is, however, that there was never any regulation
in place, post 1967, that applied to either the security packages or the
security sellers.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Wall Street firms also have a fiduciary responsibility of due
diligence to understand what they are reselling to other customers.
I quite agree, and also to properly explain it TO their customers.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
What Wall Street did was creatively spread around the irresponsibility
so thin that it was difficult to assign criminal responsibility to any
one person or organization.
This was indeed the net result of the process.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Post by John Galt
The government actually encouraged the sale and underwriting of junk
paper, to be more exact. Again, there weren't any regulations that were
voided that would have prevented what occured.
That is true. There were elements in the govt that actively encourage
unqualified buyers to get mortgages they couldn't afford. Sadly,
those elements have not been called to account as they should've been
(ie naming names). They claimed they wanted more people to have
homes, but they failed to figure out how people would pay for them.
You'd find a murderers row including members of both parties. The
campaign contributions of Fannie and Freddie were also part of the equation.

The government moving to make either homes or loans for homes more
accessible are inflationary to the housing market. We are now seeing the
result of decades of meddling in this market. The privates were more
than happy to facilitate the matter, for a price.
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Which is why I said the failure was the fault of both public and
private sectors.
The govt, over the years, DID reduce the ability of the FDIC and SEC
to execute their mission, making it easier for crap to slip through in
violation of long standing regulations.
How was the FDIC affected? Haven't heard that one before in this context.

JG
g***@yahoo.com
2009-11-30 07:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Albert
"I would have no objection to the government owning _all_
rail lines and
charging track usage fees to private TOCs. That's how it
works in
Germany, AIUI, and it seems to work well there"
This is America, Stephen, and I think it's safe to say that
many, if not most Americans don't really care much for
socialism - which is what you just described.
Oh, you mean like the federally financed highway system and federal
gasoline tax system?

Do you ever use any products imported from anywhere, including such things
as gasoline made from imported oil? Well then, chances are that you have
used something requiring the federally financed US Army Corps of Engineers
waterways and dredged ports.

Of course, any true red-blooded American must use whale-oil lamps, since
using electricity means supporting that communist federal power
distribution grid. Oh gosh, and those community cooperative power
providers that distribute electricity where no private corporation dared
string electric wires! Such horrid socialist organizations! Brining
electricity to people who want it and organized public power cooperatives
to get it! How dare they not bother waiting for a private company to
provide such a service!
--
-Glennl
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam, and most e-mail sent to this address are simply lost in the vast mess.
HAL
2009-11-30 14:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Albert
This is America, Stephen, and I think it's safe to say that
many, if not most Americans don't really care much for
socialism - which is what you just described.
They do care for Socialism. It is more like many don't want to call it
Socialism.
Post by John Albert
An ugly little concept we have called "private property",
combined with another ugly little concept called "capitalism".
Long may they both exist!
Pure Capitalism doesn't exist in the United State and can't exist. Some
functions have to be nationalized because there is not enough profits
for the Capitalists, they won't invest unless they get a high rate of
return, and many functions that are necessary for the functioning of
Capitalism are not profitable or have low returns. Goods have be moved
from the point production to the market and labor has to be moved to
the points of production.
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-30 15:13:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAL
Pure Capitalism doesn't exist in the United State and can't exist. Some
functions have to be nationalized because there is not enough profits
for the Capitalists, they won't invest unless they get a high rate of
return, and many functions that are necessary for the functioning of
Capitalism are not profitable or have low returns. Goods have be moved
from the point production to the market and labor has to be moved to
the points of production.
So true.

In the U.S. capitalism benefits a great deal from government
involvement. As mentioned, the business world greatly benefits from
govt supported transportation--business people are the major (if not
the primary) users of aviation, and businesses ship over govt financed
highways. Neither today's aviation and highway networks would exist
today unless the govt got involved to provide the leadership and
financial support to build the basic infrastructure.

After WW II the trucking and aviation industries lobbied very hard for
the government to build airports and roads. They did not have the
resources to do it themselves.

Ironically, one of the major airline presidents used to go around
making speeches calling for towns to build an airport. At the same
time, he'd rant against other govt projects. (I think it was
Richenbacher of Eastern). Socialims for me, but not for thee.
Beam Me Up Scotty
2009-11-30 16:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAL
Pure Capitalism doesn't exist in the United State and can't exist. Some
functions have to be nationalized because there is not enough profits
for the Capitalists, they won't invest unless they get a high rate of
Those functions that you say have too little profits, are those that
government has already inserted its self into and artificially destroy
the markets for Capitalists.

Since government has a Constitutional hold on war, the government has no
worry about Capitalist Competition and so the government allows
capitalism to build and supply the military.... Interesting that a
total government endeavor with pure Socialist ideals, is farmed out to
the lowest capitalist bidder?
Post by HAL
return, and many functions that are necessary for the functioning of
Capitalism are not profitable or have low returns. Goods have be moved
from the point production to the market and labor has to be moved to
the points of production.
You are looking at this up-side down, the government needs NO capitalism
in the Military, the only reason they use the private sector in the
military is that it's more efficient and more productive and more
innovative. That's all the things that Socialism is *NOT*

The government seeks total control as it has over military/war but they
want it over the entire NATION and Socialism is a way to get more
control but once the control is gained, the government will do as they
did with our Socialist Military system, they will then use the Socialist
controls to rule with and try to use capitalism to finance and support
the *deadbeat Socialist Government*

The Chinese are making a good show of it and using their
totalitarian/Socialist system to care for and dictate for the interest
of the Chinese Government while being supported by their experiment in
Capitalism, Basically the Chinese have created an army that is an army
of Capitalist soldiers to fight us using Capitalism as the battlefield.

After seeing what we did to the USSR with Capitalism, I'm not surprised
that the Socialist and Communist are attacking Capitalism in the USA,
since it was the ultimate weapon, it's the weapon of progress and we
progressed faster and better than any other with maybe the exception of
Fascism in Germany. But Germany was linked to taking more lands and
wealth in wars to keep the massive government growth on track, the USA
wasn't, the USA concentrates mainly on economic domination.
--
*BE VERY CONCERNED*

The government is always saying it wants to get rid of the poor.
Sir F. A. Rien
2009-11-30 16:47:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Albert
This is America, Stephen, and I think it's safe to say that
many, if not most Americans don't really care much for
socialism - which is what you just described.
America was founded upon socialistic principles! Do try reading history of
Jamestown and Plymouth Colony.
Post by John Albert
An ugly little concept we have called "private property",
combined with another ugly little concept called "capitalism".
Quite !

UGLY is THE word, as with the robber barons and theft of public lands, etc.
Post by John Albert
Long may they both exist!
Both Socialism and Capitalism will continue have no fear.

Each has virtues and each faults.

If you can do better, why aren't you president?
Stephen Sprunk
2009-11-30 20:09:38 UTC
Permalink
"I would have no objection to the government owning _all_ rail lines and
charging track usage fees to private TOCs. That's how it works in
Germany, AIUI, and it seems to work well there"
This is America, Stephen, and I think it's safe to say that many, if not
most Americans don't really care much for socialism - which is what you
just described.
That's amusing when it comes from someone who (IIRC) works for a
government-owned railroad.

Most Americans have no problem with the government owning roadway
infrastructure, waterway infrastructure, aviation infrastructure,
utility infrastructure, etc. Any alleged resistance to government
ownership of railway infrastructure is a fabrication of the GOP to cover
the fact they're taking huge amounts of money from highly-subsidized
operators in competing modes.

What I propose for railways is the same thing we _already have_ for the
other modes: public infrastructure and private operators.
An ugly little concept we have called "private property", combined with
another ugly little concept called "capitalism".
Long may they both exist!
Capitalism has a well-known failure mode in the case of monopolies,
particularly "natural" monopolies such as transportation and utilities.
The only realistic choices in such a case are a government-regulated
private monopoly (which has higher costs plus a profit requirement) or a
government-operated monopoly.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-30 04:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
(I believe the NE corridor service on NJ Transit is profitable, but it's
not Amtrak.)
Cite?  Even if true, one must wonder how much of that is due to NJT not
having to cover the entire infrastructure cost themselves for that
route.  Granted, Amtrak isn't allowed to subsidize commuter operations
per se, but they _are_ picking up part of the cost that NJT (and MARC,
SEPTA, MBTA, VRE, etc.) would have to pay if Amtrak were to cease to exist.
It's been reported in the newspaper that in operating costs the NJT
NEC line is profitable.

Both the commuter agencies and Amtrak support each other by
contributing to greater economies of scale. If commuters went away
Amtrak would have to pay more, if Amtrak went away commuters would
have to pay more.

Accounting for overhead allocation is not easy--there's all sorts of
different ways to prorate costs. By car? By passenger? By car
weight? It is debatable who pays their fair share of costs, but
really a moot point.

There are some who want Amk to run the NEC only and others who want
Amk to run LD only. Both are completely wrong. Amtrak is a national
system and should run both.
Amortizing fixed costs across more trains means lower per-train costs.
For a single operator, you have to balance that vs. increased operating
costs, but when another operator is paying those operating costs the
picture changes...
Things were definitely a lot simpler when the NEC was totally run by
the Pennsy, PC, and Conrail, before the agency bureaucracy came along.
Unfortunately, Amtrak doesn't break down depreciation by route, probably
because they switch rolling stock around too much for it to be feasible.
 Interest can't really be allocated to any route.
Depreciation is not realistic in terms of Amtrak. Depreciation is an
accounting tool partly to get tax relief. It often does NOT relate to
the useful life of a capital asset.

In the case of Amtrak, capital funds are not obtained as they are in
the private sector, so depreciation has even less validity. Amtrak
gets capital funds as a political issue, not on a merit issue.

The Bush Adm went out of its way to deny Amtrak needed capital
expenditures to replace critical items, as reported by David Gunn and
the Phila Inqr.

AFAIK, although state highway departments own a massive capital
infrastructure in terms of roads and bridges, they do not take
depreciation on it.
Post by Bolwerk
I expected better from Empire Service.
Yes; it's much worse than the typical regional route and worse than even
four LD routes.
Doesn't sound right.
Sir F. A. Rien
2009-11-30 16:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Both the commuter agencies and Amtrak support each other by
contributing to greater economies of scale. If commuters went away
Amtrak would have to pay more, if Amtrak went away commuters would
have to pay more.
Yeah, and the rest of the country also has to PAY for the commuters though
tax giveaways, even though we've had our rail service taken away as
'unprofitable'.. Like there's no real traffic between Los Angeles and Las
Vegas?
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Doesn't sound right.
Quite - let 'em fall!
Jishnu Mukerji
2009-11-30 17:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F. A. Rien
Post by h***@bbs.cpcn.com
Both the commuter agencies and Amtrak support each other by
contributing to greater economies of scale. If commuters went away
Amtrak would have to pay more, if Amtrak went away commuters would
have to pay more.
Yeah, and the rest of the country also has to PAY for the commuters though
tax giveaways, even though we've had our rail service taken away as
'unprofitable'.. Like there's no real traffic between Los Angeles and Las
Vegas?
Well a lot of the rest of the country is a net receiver area in terms of
federal finances, so they are living off of the taxes paid by the net
donor states which are primarily the places that have good commuter
services. So what is the rest of the country complaining about anyway?
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-30 18:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir F. A. Rien
Yeah, and the rest of the country also has to PAY for the commuters though
tax giveaways, even though we've had our rail service taken away as
'unprofitable'.. Like there's no real traffic between Los Angeles and Las
Vegas?
The rest of the country has to PAY to support motorists through tax
giveaways.

Roads are exempt from property taxes. The vast majority of railroad
route mileage in the US, including that which supports psgr trains, is
taxed at high rates.

In some states many through roads are paid for by property taxes, not
gasoline taxes.

In most places the cost of public safety services for roads (fire,
police, rescue), is paid by property taxpayers, not highway users.
Day Brown
2009-11-29 22:44:12 UTC
Permalink
What America, which is so much vaster than Japan or Europe, needs is
high speed, but also double wide rail so that passengers can drive their
cars aboard, and then be able to drive off again and have them available
in the destinations where there is little, if any, other public transport.
Stephen Sprunk
2009-11-29 23:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Day Brown
What America, which is so much vaster than Japan or Europe, needs is
high speed,
Try coming up with the capital for that.
Post by Day Brown
but also double wide rail so that passengers can drive their
cars aboard, and then be able to drive off again and have them available
in the destinations where there is little, if any, other public transport.
You don't need "double wide rail" for that. Amtrak already has the Auto
Train on standard gauge. It's slow and loses money. Also, the stops
(including loading and unloading time) are so slow that it's pretty much
a point-to-point service; there's just no way to do it on a normal
multistop route, at least not if you want an average speed that exceeds
that of a bicycle.

The real solutions are to improve public transit such that it is usable
and/or get car-sharing services started.

(I have no idea how the Chunnel's auto ferry service performs, but it's
roughly the same idea, also on standard gauge.)

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
r***@gmail.com
2009-11-30 04:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Day Brown
What America, which is so much vaster than Japan or Europe, needs is
high speed,
Try coming up with the capital for that.
Post by Day Brown
but also double wide rail so that passengers can drive their
cars aboard, and then be able to drive off again and have them available
in the destinations where there is little, if any, other public transport.
we have discussed this before and it is unworkable

if, as Stephen says we had truly efficient transit, it would be
unnecessary
Post by Stephen Sprunk
You don't need "double wide rail" for that.  Amtrak already has the Auto
Train on standard gauge.  It's slow and loses money.  Also, the stops
(including loading and unloading time) are so slow that it's pretty much
a point-to-point service; there's just no way to do it on a normal
multistop route, at least not if you want an average speed that exceeds
that of a bicycle.
I don't think it is a loser, from what I understand it is popular.

it is basically from the northeast to FL and it relieves people of
driving I-95.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
The real solutions are to improve public transit such that it is usable
and/or get car-sharing services started.
(I have no idea how the Chunnel's auto ferry service performs, but it's
roughly the same idea, also on standard gauge.)
S
--
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Stephen Sprunk
2009-11-30 15:33:13 UTC
Permalink
[misc.transport.rail.europe removed]
Post by r***@gmail.com
Post by Stephen Sprunk
You don't need "double wide rail" for that. Amtrak already has the Auto
Train on standard gauge. It's slow and loses money. Also, the stops
(including loading and unloading time) are so slow that it's pretty much
a point-to-point service; there's just no way to do it on a normal
multistop route, at least not if you want an average speed that exceeds
that of a bicycle.
I don't think it is a loser, from what I understand it is popular.
The numbers are right there in Amtrak's monthly performance reports: it
loses money. Popularity has little to do with profitability.
Post by r***@gmail.com
it is basically from the northeast to FL and it relieves people of
driving I-95.
Yes, it's a great service for the customer, especially since they're not
paying the full cost.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
h***@bbs.cpcn.com
2009-11-30 18:17:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
The numbers are right there in Amtrak's monthly performance reports: it
loses money.  Popularity has little to do with profitability.
Everything Amtrak does loses money and requires a subsidy. Just like
flying in an airplane or driving your car requires a subsidy.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by r***@gmail.com
it is basically from the northeast to FL and it relieves people of
driving I-95.
Yes, it's a great service for the customer, especially since they're not
paying the full cost.
Since none of the travellers are paying the full cost, the
profitability or lack thereof is generally not relevant.

Given the horendous traffic problems on I-95 and the overcrowded
airports throughout the eastern US , efforts to provided an
alternative is a good idea and in the public interest.

The incremental cost of expanding Amtrak is orders of magnitude
cheaper than acquiring expensive new land to build more highways and
airports in developed areas. Expanding just _one_ airport is at
least a billion dollars, but Amtrak could do quite a bit with that
money. Certainly most long haul travellers will continue to fly, but
getting short haul passage off extremely inefficient airways onto
trains makes good sense. (Airplanes are notoriously inefficient on
short haul flights.)
Willms
2009-11-30 09:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Am Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:33:09 UTC, schrieb Stephen Sprunk
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Day Brown
but also double wide rail so that passengers can drive their
cars aboard, and then be able to drive off again and have them available
in the destinations where there is little, if any, other public transport.
You don't need "double wide rail" for that. Amtrak already has the Auto
Train on standard gauge.
I know of the one which links Washington, DC with Florida.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
It's slow and loses money. Also, the stops (including loading
and unloading time) are so slow that it's pretty much
a point-to-point service;
That is the idea of such Auto Trains - one gets from home to the
vacation area in a sleeper train and carries the own car in one wagon
on that train.

I have never heard of an auto train which allows loading and
unloading on intermediate stops.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
(I have no idea how the Chunnel's auto ferry service performs, but it's
roughly the same idea, also on standard gauge.)
No, this is something very different: it is a ferry on rails, just
to cross the Channel, a trip which takes half an hour (excluding
check-in times).


Cheers,
L.W.
Stephen Sprunk
2009-11-30 15:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willms
Am Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:33:09 UTC, schrieb Stephen Sprunk
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Day Brown
but also double wide rail so that passengers can drive their
cars aboard, and then be able to drive off again and have them available
in the destinations where there is little, if any, other public transport.
You don't need "double wide rail" for that. Amtrak already has the Auto
Train on standard gauge.
I know of the one which links Washington, DC with Florida.
That's the Auto Train.
Post by Willms
Post by Stephen Sprunk
It's slow and loses money. Also, the stops (including loading
and unloading time) are so slow that it's pretty much
a point-to-point service;
That is the idea of such Auto Trains - one gets from home to the
vacation area in a sleeper train and carries the own car in one wagon
on that train.
The problem is that not everyone is going to the same stop. What about
people going to Florida from MA, NY, or PA? They have to drive to DC to
use the Auto Train. And what if they don't want to go to Orlando but
rather Jacksonville or Miami? More driving.

Either the train has to make multiple stops or you need to run a
separate train between each pair of cities. Either way, you're going to
lose money.
Post by Willms
I have never heard of an auto train which allows loading and
unloading on intermediate stops.
And that's why they're unworkable in general.
Post by Willms
Post by Stephen Sprunk
(I have no idea how the Chunnel's auto ferry service performs, but it's
roughly the same idea, also on standard gauge.)
No, this is something very different: it is a ferry on rails, just
to cross the Channel, a trip which takes half an hour (excluding
check-in times).
Technologically, it's no different. The length of the trip is irrelevant.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
bob
2009-11-30 14:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by Day Brown
What America, which is so much vaster than Japan or Europe, needs is
high speed,
Try coming up with the capital for that.
Post by Day Brown
but also double wide rail so that passengers can drive their
cars aboard, and then be able to drive off again and have them available
in the destinations where there is little, if any, other public transport.
You don't need "double wide rail" for that.  Amtrak already has the Auto
Train on standard gauge.  It's slow and loses money.  Also, the stops
(including loading and unloading time) are so slow that it's pretty much
a point-to-point service; there's just no way to do it on a normal
multistop route, at least not if you want an average speed that exceeds
that of a bicycle.
The real solutions are to improve public transit such that it is usable
and/or get car-sharing services started.
(I have no idea how the Chunnel's auto ferry service performs, but it's
roughly the same idea, also on standard gauge.)
There are also car transporter services on a number of long alpine
tunnels (including on meter gauge). I have no details, however, on
how these are paid for (I know there is a toll for the motorist, but I
don't know how much of a subsidy they receive). Motorrail or
equivalent services in locations other than long tunnels through
impassible terrain (under water, through mountains) seem to be in
severe decline in most places, though.

Robin
tobias b koehler
2009-08-24 20:09:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kyle Schwitters
"A Rail Boondoggle, Moving at High Speed"
By Robert J. Samuelson
Monday, August 24, 2009
Densities are much higher, and high densities favor rail with direct
connections between heavily populated city centers and business
districts. In Japan, density is 880 people per square mile; it's 653
in Britain, 611 in Germany and 259 in France. By contrast, plentiful
land in the United States has led to suburbanized homes, offices and
factories. Density is 86 people per square mile. Trains can't pick up
most people where they live and work and take them to where they want
to go. Cars can.
You cannot compare average figures for entire countries. All planned
high speed corridors are in areas with much higher population density.
One problem remains that the percentage of people living in areas with
absolutely no public transportation nearby may be higher, so either this
has to be solved with on-demand bus systems or with park and rail (which
doesn't always work because many people, once in their cars, will stay
there until their destination). Does anyone have figures to compare,
here? (How many people are living nearby reasonable public
transportation here vs there .....)
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Distances also matter. America is big; trips are longer. Beyond 400 to
500 miles, fast trains can't compete with planes.
Europe is big too, but America also has a good number of shorter trips.
(Besides, look at the other recent thread in mtre and mtrm: Japan shows
how to travel 1000 km = 621 imperial miles in 4 hours, which is
perfectly competitive against air, if you count all waiting and transfer
times.)

toby
Robert Heller
2009-08-24 21:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by tobias b koehler
Post by Kyle Schwitters
"A Rail Boondoggle, Moving at High Speed"
By Robert J. Samuelson
Monday, August 24, 2009
Densities are much higher, and high densities favor rail with direct
connections between heavily populated city centers and business
districts. In Japan, density is 880 people per square mile; it's 653
in Britain, 611 in Germany and 259 in France. By contrast, plentiful
land in the United States has led to suburbanized homes, offices and
factories. Density is 86 people per square mile. Trains can't pick up
most people where they live and work and take them to where they want
to go. Cars can.
You cannot compare average figures for entire countries. All planned
high speed corridors are in areas with much higher population density.
One problem remains that the percentage of people living in areas with
absolutely no public transportation nearby may be higher, so either this
has to be solved with on-demand bus systems or with park and rail (which
doesn't always work because many people, once in their cars, will stay
there until their destination). Does anyone have figures to compare,
here? (How many people are living nearby reasonable public
transportation here vs there .....)
One of the totally 'silly' things the anti-rail lobby does is compare
end-to-end trains with end-to-end planes. This makes no sense. Air
travel is almost always point-to-point -- few (do any?) planes make
intermediate stops -- trains make lots and *most* train travelers only
travel 'short' segments of these cross-country trains. So comparing
the Chicago to LA train with a Chicago to LA plane is meaningless.
Rather compare any number of *intermediate* city pairs along the
Chicago to LA train's route with the planes that serve those city
pairs.
Post by tobias b koehler
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Distances also matter. America is big; trips are longer. Beyond 400 to
500 miles, fast trains can't compete with planes.
Europe is big too, but America also has a good number of shorter trips.
(Besides, look at the other recent thread in mtre and mtrm: Japan shows
how to travel 1000 km = 621 imperial miles in 4 hours, which is
perfectly competitive against air, if you count all waiting and transfer
times.)
toby
--
Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software -- Download the Model Railroad System
http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Binaries for Linux and MS-Windows
***@deepsoft.com -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ModelRailroadSystem/
Stephen Sprunk
2009-08-24 22:11:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Heller
One of the totally 'silly' things the anti-rail lobby does is compare
end-to-end trains with end-to-end planes. This makes no sense. Air
travel is almost always point-to-point -- few (do any?) planes make
intermediate stops -- trains make lots and *most* train travelers only
travel 'short' segments of these cross-country trains.
More importantly, though, the anti-rail folks assume all people
traveling between two points will take a non-stop route, if one is even
available. They completely ignore how folks traveling a mere 200-400
miles may end up traveling to a hub airport 1000+ miles away and
spending several hours there before their connecting flight leaves -- or
overnight, if they missed their connection.

Anti-rail folks also usually ignore the time it takes to drive to an
airport across town, the time spent dealing with parking and shuttle
buses, security lines, boarding 30 minutes before departure, etc.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "Stupid people surround themselves with smart
CCIE #3723 people. Smart people surround themselves with
K5SSS smart people who disagree with them." --Isaac Jaffe
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2009-08-24 22:58:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kyle Schwitters
In a country where 140 million people go to work
every day, Amtrak has 78,000 daily passengers.
Plus 1.7 million per day ride on other railroads. But you are right,
that this is an extremely low figure.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
It's already
proposed spending $13 billion ($8 billion in the "stimulus" package
and $1 billion annually for five years) as a down payment on high-
speed rail in 10 "corridors," including Philadelphia to Pittsburgh and
Houston to New Orleans.
In Spain, this would be enough money to build 600 miles of high-speed
track.
In the USA, it will pay the planners, lobbyists, consultants, and
lawyers, but it is not assured, that it buys a single mile of hardware.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
The audience is willing. Many
Americans love trains and regard other countries' systems (say,
Spain's rapid trains between Madrid and Barcelona, running at about
150 mph) as evidence of U.S. technological inferiority.
There's only one catch: The vision is a mirage. The costs of high-
speed rail would be huge, and the public benefits meager.
That's true. While the US aren't technologically inferior to Spain, they
are certainly inferior to Spain, as soon as we are talking about getting
such project done.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
That would be only the beginning. Ticket prices would surely be
subsidized;
If the trains operate to FRA rules, yes, certainly. An alternative could
be, to use a ruleset similar to those countries, which operate successful
passenger railroads, but that won't happen.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Densities are much higher, and high densities favor rail with direct
connections between heavily populated city centers and business
districts. In Japan, density is 880 people per square mile; it's 653
in Britain, 611 in Germany and 259 in France.
...and 53 in Sweden, just to make sure, that you don't forget this
country with its successful passenger railroad.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Distances also matter. America is big;
Yes, sure.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
trips are longer.
Are they? Daily commutes, yes. But beyond? Don't forget the higher
number of holidays in Europe, which create their own travel pattern.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Beyond 400 to
500 miles, fast trains can't compete with planes.
Your statement will be tested in 3 years, when 819 miles of
Beijing - Shanghai railroad goes into operation at 236 mph.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
Finally, Europe and
Japan tax car transportation more heavily, pushing people to trains.
In August 2008, notes the GAO, gasoline in Japan was $6.50 a gallon.
Americans regard $4 a gallon as an outrage.
They will adapt to much higher figures, without any taxes being needed.



Hans-Joachim
--
In one European country, GM locos still
provide the backbone of passenger traffic.

Loading Image...
Winston
2009-08-25 00:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
In Spain, this would be enough money to build 600 miles of high-speed
track.
In the USA, it will pay the planners, lobbyists, consultants, and
lawyers, but it is not assured, that it buys a single mile of hardware.
Post by Kyle Schwitters
That would be only the beginning. Ticket prices would surely be
subsidized;
If the trains operate to FRA rules, yes, certainly. An alternative could
be, to use a ruleset similar to those countries, which operate successful
passenger railroads, but that won't happen.
Actually, California plans to do just that with their HSR system even
though it will mean complete separation from FRA track. In some ways
this isn't very different than what Spain has had to do since its HSR
system is standard gauge while the rest of its rail network isn't.
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2009-08-26 05:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston
Actually, California plans to do just that with their HSR system even
though it will mean complete separation from FRA track.
Last I heard was, that the FRA would set the regulations for it
nonetheless. Any news to report?
Post by Winston
In some ways
this isn't very different than what Spain has had to do since its HSR
system is standard gauge while the rest of its rail network isn't.
AFAIK, freight can already roll into Spain on 1435, to Gerone. More to be
expected.
Costs of the border-crossing link won't have been justified, without
sharing it with freight.


Hans-Joachim
--
To Russia with 10000 hp.

Loading Image...
Willms
2009-08-26 08:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 26 Aug 2009 05:59:32 UTC, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Winston
In some ways
this isn't very different than what Spain has had to do since its HSR
system is standard gauge while the rest of its rail network isn't.
AFAIK, freight can already roll into Spain on 1435, to Gerone.
Wrong. Planned does not yet mean realised.

But your statement has one advantage: I now _know_ for sure, how
much of your "information" is pure fiction.

And what is planned is a third rail on the "classic" track, so that
on one of the two tracks between Figueres and Gerona both Iberian and
UIC track gauge will be available.


Cheers,
Miles Bader
2009-08-26 08:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willms
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
AFAIK, freight can already roll into Spain on 1435, to Gerone.
Wrong. Planned does not yet mean realised.
But your statement has one advantage: I now _know_ for sure, how
much of your "information" is pure fiction.
Er, well obviously you don't "know" it; a single sample does not tell
you about the general case. After all, if he's ever gotten anything
_right_ (and surely he has), then how is that any less significant than
this mistake?

-miles
--
Cabbage, n. A familiar kitchen-garden vegetable about as large and wise as a
man's head.
Willms
2009-08-26 10:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miles Bader
Post by Willms
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
AFAIK, freight can already roll into Spain on 1435, to Gerone.
Wrong. Planned does not yet mean realised.
But your statement has one advantage: I now _know_ for sure, how
much of your "information" is pure fiction.
Er, well obviously you don't "know" it; a single sample does not tell
you about the general case. After all, if he's ever gotten anything
_right_ (and surely he has), then how is that any less significant than
this mistake?
It is not reliable.


Cheers,
L.W.
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2009-08-26 11:22:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miles Bader
After all, if he's ever gotten anything
_right_ (and surely he has), then how is that any less significant than
this mistake?
The border-crossing link opened in February, that's what I remembered from
the trade press.

Apparently, they have some problems in the Figueras station environment,
so they now have a brand-new high-speed line, all done, with 0 trains
operating on it.


I can't read Spanish, so it's difficult to get down to the reason.



Hans-Joachim
--
Tilt, Baby, tilt!

Loading Image...
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2009-08-26 12:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Apparently, they have some problems in the Figueras station environment,
so they now have a brand-new high-speed line, all done, with 0 trains
operating on it.
The end of a new-built high-speed line, in direct neighbourhood to Figueras,
photo of February:
Loading Image...


Hans-Joachim
--
Tilt, Baby, tilt!

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ferrocarriles/images/c/cb/TGV41_P1050171.jpg
Willms
2009-08-26 15:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:16:59 UTC, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
The end of a new-built high-speed line, in direct neighbourhood to Figueras,
of which year? And why should anybody believe your indications about
the date of the photo?
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/7/b/7bb1c48d.jpg
At least they are working on the other side.


Cheers,
L.W.
Willms
2009-08-26 12:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 26 Aug 2009 11:22:57 UTC, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
The border-crossing link opened in February, that's what I remembered from
the trade press.
But that went only up to a few kilometers north of Figueres. Even
from Figueres to Gerona is still quite some stretch.
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Apparently, they have some problems in the Figueras station environment,
so they now have a brand-new high-speed line, all done, with 0 trains
operating on it.
Yeah, because the construction on the Spanish side is delayed by a
few years.

But they are busy building.

Independently of that go the works which I mentioned in my previous
message.


Cheers,
Willms
2009-08-26 15:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 26 Aug 2009 11:22:57 UTC, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
I can't read Spanish, so it's difficult to get down to the reason.
Then you should avoid to make so definite statements.


Cheers,
Nickname unavailable
2009-08-26 06:28:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
If the trains operate to FRA rules, yes, certainly. An alternative could
be, to use a ruleset similar to those countries, which operate successful
passenger railroads, but that won't happen.
Actually, California plans to do just that with their HSR system even
though it will mean complete separation from FRA track.  
1. Separation (i.e. duplicate infrastructure) is one reason
for absurd cost to implement HSR in the US.

2. Even with separation, it is possible FRA will
still have authority over the proposed CA project.
FRA has been involved in the planning process,
which probably means the CA will have nonsense
operating restrictions. For example: full concrete
barrier between high-speed tracks and "conventional
tracks" and/or extra-large separation distance.

3. For the Caltrain portion of the project, it is
not clear how to mix the competing modes:
freight, commuter, and HSR. No doubt, the
most expensive and least flexible solution
will be required by FRA. Contracting mafia
will happily oblige.
Adam H. Kerman
2009-08-29 17:54:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston
Actually, California plans to do just that with their HSR system even
though it will mean complete separation from FRA track.
FRA wrote regulations years ago to prevent California from doing
exactly that. Complete separation won't get them from under federal
regulations, not unless California successfully asserts a federalism
argument in federal court.

The federal government gave itself jurisdiction over all matters in the
1958 amendments to the Transportation Act of 1920. Before that, as an
example, train off petitions and branch line abandonments filed with
I.C.C. might have resulted in trains or service getting cut to a state
line (or possibly the first existing crew base across the state line,
such as Chicago-Clinton, Iowa service on C&NW) if the railroad didn't
get a corresponding order from state public service commissions. After
that, the railroad got one-stop shopping with I.C.C., where they had to
consider the economic effect on interstate commerce of a money-losing
service that was mostly or entirely within the boundaries of one state.
John Levine
2009-08-26 22:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kyle Schwitters
"The high-speed vision is a mirage. The costs of high-speed rail would
be huge, and the public benefits meager."
Paul Krugman pointed out the fundamental dishonesty of this argument,
that the US is too spread out for rail to work. Nobody's proposing
high-speed rail from Alaska to Florida, they're proposing it in
corridors that are just as dense as all the other places where
high-speed rail works:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/dense-about-density/
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/more-on-density-and-rail/
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2009-08-27 07:56:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Levine
Paul Krugman pointed out the fundamental dishonesty of this argument,
that the US is too spread out for rail to work. Nobody's proposing
high-speed rail from Alaska to Florida, they're proposing it in
corridors that are just as dense as all the other places where
In mtra, the fundamental dishonesty of the argument has been pointed
out ... 50 times? 100 times? 200 times?

You'll find plenty of such postings out of the 20th century.



Of course, it did not help. Such argument is only helpful, if the other
side /doesn't want/ to be dishonest, for ideological reasons.

And just like the hundreds of mtra postings, Krugman pointing it out
another time won't help either. It's only be helpful for people, who
/want/ to be honest, and aren't in strawman putup mode.


Hans-Joachim
--
Tilt, Baby, tilt!

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ferrocarriles/images/c/cb/TGV41_P1050171.jpg
Miles Bader
2009-08-27 08:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
And just like the hundreds of mtra postings, Krugman pointing it out
another time won't help either.
Still, many more people, and perhaps more importantly, many more
_influential_ people read the NYT than read mtra.... Writing something
in the NYT _can_ actually have an effect.

[Sadly, this applies to misinformation too, like the NYT links to the
silly freakonomics blog entries about HSR (the reader responses on the
blog page actually pointed out many of the stupidities, however)].]

-Miles
--
"Nah, there's no bigger atheist than me. Well, I take that back.
I'm a cancer screening away from going agnostic and a biopsy away
from full-fledged Christian." [Adam Carolla]
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2009-08-27 09:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miles Bader
Still, many more people, and perhaps more importantly, many more
_influential_ people read the NYT than read mtra...
And how many _influential_ people aren't aware of

Loading Image...

?



I don't live in the USA, but don't need more than a minute, to access
that knowledge. After all, it's not more than typing "usa population
density" into Google, plus a Click.



Hans-Joachim
--
Tilt, Baby, tilt!

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ferrocarriles/images/c/cb/TGV41_P1050171.jpg
Willms
2009-08-27 11:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Am Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:23:04 UTC, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
And how many _influential_ people aren't aware of
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/7000/7052/us_population_2005_lrg.jpg
There very very very few people who memorize URLs by heart.


Cheers,
L.W.
tobias b koehler
2009-08-27 13:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willms
Am Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:23:04 UTC, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
And how many _influential_ people aren't aware of
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/7000/7052/us_population_2005_lrg.jpg
There very very very few people who memorize URLs by heart.
Truly influential people know how to research what they need to draw
their conclusions, or which experts to consult.

After all you don't just put a high speed line into the white areas of
that map, just because the land is cheaper there .....
Adam H. Kerman
2009-08-29 17:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kyle Schwitters
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/23/AR2009082302037.html
"A Rail Boondoggle, Moving at High Speed"
By Robert J. Samuelson
Monday, August 24, 2009
THE OBAMA administration's enthusiasm for high-speed rail is a
dispiriting example of government's inability to learn from past
mistakes. Since 1971, the federal government has poured almost $35
billion in subsidies into Amtrak with few public benefits. . . .
Whoa. $35 billion over 37 fiscal years. I had no idea, none whatsover,
that Amtrak was the single largest federally subsidized program ever,
entirely responsible for the grossness of the federal deficit.

Really. With wasteful spending on that level, it's hard to believe that
the nation wasn't in continuous recession the entire time.
g***@yahoo.com
2009-08-30 09:13:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Whoa. $35 billion over 37 fiscal years. I had no idea, none whatsover,
that Amtrak was the single largest federally subsidized program ever,
entirely responsible for the grossness of the federal deficit.
At least Amtrak passengers pay between 60% and 80% ofthe cost of the
system. Most of the transit agencies that receive FTA money are in the
20% or so range, and FTA gets more money per year than Amtrak does.

I spent some time in Seattle recently. The Ballard locks between Lake
Washington and Puget Sound operates dozens of times a day. A huge
percentage of the traffic is luxury yahts and other recreational craft,
with only the occasional commercial vessel. A fair number of those luxury
boats are larger than my house. Yet, they get to pass through Ballard
locks courtesy of the US Army Corps of Engineers because having rich
people pay a toll for anything is apparently forbidden these days.
--
-Glennl
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam, and most e-mail sent to this address are simply lost in the vast mess.
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