Discussion:
Dept. of Veterans Affairs: No memorial for fallen U.S. soldier. He's a Wiccan
(too old to reply)
Harry Hope
2006-07-04 10:37:38 UTC
Permalink
From The Washington Post, 7/4/06:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/03/AR2006070300968.html?nav=rss_nation

Fallen Soldier Gets a Bronze Star but No Pagan Star

By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer

Tuesday, July 4, 2006; Page A02


At the Veterans Memorial Cemetery in the small town of Fernley, Nev.,
there is a wall of brass plaques for local heroes.

But one space is blank.

There is no memorial for Sgt. Patrick D. Stewart.

That's because Stewart was a Wiccan, and the U.S. Department of
Veterans Affairs has refused to allow a symbol of the Wicca religion
-- a five-pointed star within a circle, called a pentacle -- to be
inscribed on U.S. military memorials or grave markers.

The department has approved the symbols of 38 other faiths; about half
of are versions of the Christian cross.

It also allows the Jewish Star of David, the Muslim crescent, the
Buddhist wheel, the Mormon angel, the nine-pointed star of Bahai and
something that looks like an atomic symbol for atheists.

Stewart, 34, is believed to be the first Wiccan killed in combat.

He was serving in the Nevada National Guard when the helicopter in
which he was riding was shot down in Afghanistan last September.

He previously had served in the Army in Korea and Operation Desert
Storm.

He was posthumously awarded a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star.

His widow, Roberta Stewart, scattered his ashes in the hills above
Reno and would like him to have a permanent memorial.

She said the veterans cemetery in Fernley offered to install a plaque
with his name and no religious symbol.

She refused.

"Once they do that, they'll forget me. They don't like having a hole
in the wall," she said.

"I feel very strongly that my husband fought for the Constitution of
the United States, he was proud of his spirituality and of being a
Wiccan, and he was proud of being an American."

Wicca is one of the fastest-growing faiths in the country.

Its adherents have increased almost 17-fold from 8,000 in 1990 to
134,000 in 2001, according to the American Religious Identification
Survey.

The Pentagon says that more than 1,800 Wiccans are on active duty in
the armed forces.

Wiccans still suffer, however, from the misconception that they are
devil worshipers.

Some Wiccans call themselves witches, pagans or neopagans.

Most of their rituals revolve around the cycles of nature, such as
equinoxes and phases of the moon.

Wiccans often pick and choose among religious traditions, blending
belief in reincarnation and feminine gods with ritual dancing,
chanting and herbal medicine.

Federal courts have recognized Wicca as a religion since 1986.

Prisons across the country treat it as a legitimate faith, as do the
Internal Revenue Service and the U.S. military, which allows Wiccan
ceremonies on its bases.

"My husband's dog tags said 'Wiccan' on them," Stewart noted.

But applications from Wiccan groups and individuals to VA for use of
the pentacle on grave markers have been pending for nine years, during
which time the symbols of 11 other faiths have been approved.

Department spokeswoman Josephine Schuda said VA turned down Wiccans in
the past because religious groups used to be required to list a
headquarters or central authority, which Wicca does not have.

But that requirement was eliminated last year, she noted.

"I really have no idea why it has taken so long" for the Wiccan symbol
to gain approval, Schuda said.

The department declined repeated requests from The Washington Post to
speak to higher-ranking officials about the issue.

Retired Army Chaplain William Chrystal, a United Church of Christ
minister who was chaplain of Stewart's National Guard unit, has
strongly backed Roberta Stewart's request.

"It's such a clear First Amendment issue, I can't even conceive of why
they are not granting it, except for political reasons," he said.

"I think the powers that be are afraid they'll alienate conservative
Christians if they approve a symbol that connotes witches and warlocks
casting spells and brewing potions."

Nevada's congressional delegation, including Senate Minority Leader
Harry M. Reid (D), also has supported Roberta Stewart.

But letters printed by Nevada newspapers indicate how much hostility
Wiccans face.

"I don't see how anything that supports witchcraft and satanism can
legitimately be called a religion," one reader wrote to the Reno
Gazette-Journal.

Stewart said that she is trying to educate people about Wicca, as well
as to fulfill her husband's wishes.

"Until he is laid to rest," she said, "I cannot rest."

_________________________________________________________

Welcome to Bushworld.

Harry
TypicalRightWingGunNut
2006-07-04 10:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Hope
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/03/AR2006070300968.html?nav=rss_nation
Fallen Soldier Gets a Bronze Star but No Pagan Star
By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, July 4, 2006; Page A02
At the Veterans Memorial Cemetery in the small town of Fernley, Nev.,
there is a wall of brass plaques for local heroes.
But one space is blank.
There is no memorial for Sgt. Patrick D. Stewart.
That's because Stewart was a Wiccan, and the U.S. Department of
Veterans Affairs has refused to allow a symbol of the Wicca religion
-- a five-pointed star within a circle, called a pentacle -- to be
inscribed on U.S. military memorials or grave markers.
The department has approved the symbols of 38 other faiths; about half
of are versions of the Christian cross.
It also allows the Jewish Star of David, the Muslim crescent, the
Buddhist wheel, the Mormon angel, the nine-pointed star of Bahai and
something that looks like an atomic symbol for atheists.
Stewart, 34, is believed to be the first Wiccan killed in combat.
He was serving in the Nevada National Guard when the helicopter in
which he was riding was shot down in Afghanistan last September.
He previously had served in the Army in Korea and Operation Desert
Storm.
He was posthumously awarded a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star.
His widow, Roberta Stewart, scattered his ashes in the hills above
Reno and would like him to have a permanent memorial.
She said the veterans cemetery in Fernley offered to install a plaque
with his name and no religious symbol.
She refused.
"Once they do that, they'll forget me. They don't like having a hole
in the wall," she said.
"I feel very strongly that my husband fought for the Constitution of
the United States, he was proud of his spirituality and of being a
Wiccan, and he was proud of being an American."
Wicca is one of the fastest-growing faiths in the country.
Its adherents have increased almost 17-fold from 8,000 in 1990 to
134,000 in 2001, according to the American Religious Identification
Survey.
The Pentagon says that more than 1,800 Wiccans are on active duty in
the armed forces.
Wiccans still suffer, however, from the misconception that they are
devil worshipers.
Some Wiccans call themselves witches, pagans or neopagans.
Most of their rituals revolve around the cycles of nature, such as
equinoxes and phases of the moon.
Wiccans often pick and choose among religious traditions, blending
belief in reincarnation and feminine gods with ritual dancing,
chanting and herbal medicine.
Federal courts have recognized Wicca as a religion since 1986.
Prisons across the country treat it as a legitimate faith, as do the
Internal Revenue Service and the U.S. military, which allows Wiccan
ceremonies on its bases.
"My husband's dog tags said 'Wiccan' on them," Stewart noted.
But applications from Wiccan groups and individuals to VA for use of
the pentacle on grave markers have been pending for nine years, during
which time the symbols of 11 other faiths have been approved.
Department spokeswoman Josephine Schuda said VA turned down Wiccans in
the past because religious groups used to be required to list a
headquarters or central authority, which Wicca does not have.
But that requirement was eliminated last year, she noted.
"I really have no idea why it has taken so long" for the Wiccan symbol
to gain approval, Schuda said.
The department declined repeated requests from The Washington Post to
speak to higher-ranking officials about the issue.
Retired Army Chaplain William Chrystal, a United Church of Christ
minister who was chaplain of Stewart's National Guard unit, has
strongly backed Roberta Stewart's request.
"It's such a clear First Amendment issue, I can't even conceive of why
they are not granting it, except for political reasons," he said.
"I think the powers that be are afraid they'll alienate conservative
Christians if they approve a symbol that connotes witches and warlocks
casting spells and brewing potions."
Nevada's congressional delegation, including Senate Minority Leader
Harry M. Reid (D), also has supported Roberta Stewart.
But letters printed by Nevada newspapers indicate how much hostility
Wiccans face.
"I don't see how anything that supports witchcraft and satanism can
legitimately be called a religion," one reader wrote to the Reno
Gazette-Journal.
Stewart said that she is trying to educate people about Wicca, as well
as to fulfill her husband's wishes.
"Until he is laid to rest," she said, "I cannot rest."
_________________________________________________________
Welcome to Bushworld.
This story is misleading. Wicca has a symbol and it is used on
gravemarkers at our National Cemeteries. I've seen them at Florida
National Cemetery. It is not a pentegram but it is wiccan.
r***@comcast.net
2006-07-05 15:12:19 UTC
Permalink
On 4 Jul 2006 03:44:13 -0700, "TypicalRightWingGunNut"
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
This story is misleading. Wicca has a symbol and it is used on
gravemarkers at our National Cemeteries. I've seen them at Florida
National Cemetery. It is not a pentegram but it is wiccan.
Then you can provide a picture of it? Google is your friend.

________________
I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.
Terence
UnderdogFL
2006-07-10 14:09:06 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, I was wrong. I was thinking of another symbol. I withdrew the
post.
Post by r***@comcast.net
On 4 Jul 2006 03:44:13 -0700, "TypicalRightWingGunNut"
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
This story is misleading. Wicca has a symbol and it is used on
gravemarkers at our National Cemeteries. I've seen them at Florida
National Cemetery. It is not a pentegram but it is wiccan.
Then you can provide a picture of it? Google is your friend.
________________
I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.
Terence
TypicalRightWingGunNut
2006-07-04 10:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Hope
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/03/AR2006070300968.html?nav=rss_nation
Fallen Soldier Gets a Bronze Star but No Pagan Star
By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, July 4, 2006; Page A02
At the Veterans Memorial Cemetery in the small town of Fernley, Nev.,
there is a wall of brass plaques for local heroes.
But one space is blank.
There is no memorial for Sgt. Patrick D. Stewart.
That's because Stewart was a Wiccan, and the U.S. Department of
Veterans Affairs has refused to allow a symbol of the Wicca religion
-- a five-pointed star within a circle, called a pentacle -- to be
inscribed on U.S. military memorials or grave markers.
The department has approved the symbols of 38 other faiths; about half
of are versions of the Christian cross.
It also allows the Jewish Star of David, the Muslim crescent, the
Buddhist wheel, the Mormon angel, the nine-pointed star of Bahai and
something that looks like an atomic symbol for atheists.
Stewart, 34, is believed to be the first Wiccan killed in combat.
He was serving in the Nevada National Guard when the helicopter in
which he was riding was shot down in Afghanistan last September.
He previously had served in the Army in Korea and Operation Desert
Storm.
He was posthumously awarded a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star.
His widow, Roberta Stewart, scattered his ashes in the hills above
Reno and would like him to have a permanent memorial.
She said the veterans cemetery in Fernley offered to install a plaque
with his name and no religious symbol.
She refused.
"Once they do that, they'll forget me. They don't like having a hole
in the wall," she said.
"I feel very strongly that my husband fought for the Constitution of
the United States, he was proud of his spirituality and of being a
Wiccan, and he was proud of being an American."
Wicca is one of the fastest-growing faiths in the country.
Its adherents have increased almost 17-fold from 8,000 in 1990 to
134,000 in 2001, according to the American Religious Identification
Survey.
The Pentagon says that more than 1,800 Wiccans are on active duty in
the armed forces.
Wiccans still suffer, however, from the misconception that they are
devil worshipers.
Some Wiccans call themselves witches, pagans or neopagans.
Most of their rituals revolve around the cycles of nature, such as
equinoxes and phases of the moon.
Wiccans often pick and choose among religious traditions, blending
belief in reincarnation and feminine gods with ritual dancing,
chanting and herbal medicine.
Federal courts have recognized Wicca as a religion since 1986.
Prisons across the country treat it as a legitimate faith, as do the
Internal Revenue Service and the U.S. military, which allows Wiccan
ceremonies on its bases.
"My husband's dog tags said 'Wiccan' on them," Stewart noted.
But applications from Wiccan groups and individuals to VA for use of
the pentacle on grave markers have been pending for nine years, during
which time the symbols of 11 other faiths have been approved.
Department spokeswoman Josephine Schuda said VA turned down Wiccans in
the past because religious groups used to be required to list a
headquarters or central authority, which Wicca does not have.
But that requirement was eliminated last year, she noted.
"I really have no idea why it has taken so long" for the Wiccan symbol
to gain approval, Schuda said.
The department declined repeated requests from The Washington Post to
speak to higher-ranking officials about the issue.
Retired Army Chaplain William Chrystal, a United Church of Christ
minister who was chaplain of Stewart's National Guard unit, has
strongly backed Roberta Stewart's request.
"It's such a clear First Amendment issue, I can't even conceive of why
they are not granting it, except for political reasons," he said.
"I think the powers that be are afraid they'll alienate conservative
Christians if they approve a symbol that connotes witches and warlocks
casting spells and brewing potions."
Nevada's congressional delegation, including Senate Minority Leader
Harry M. Reid (D), also has supported Roberta Stewart.
But letters printed by Nevada newspapers indicate how much hostility
Wiccans face.
"I don't see how anything that supports witchcraft and satanism can
legitimately be called a religion," one reader wrote to the Reno
Gazette-Journal.
Stewart said that she is trying to educate people about Wicca, as well
as to fulfill her husband's wishes.
"Until he is laid to rest," she said, "I cannot rest."
_________________________________________________________
Welcome to Bushworld.
"Bushworld" includes all these symbols in National Cemetery grave
markers: http://www.cem.va.gov/hmemb.htm

Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
f***@msn.com
2006-07-04 11:01:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
Did any Wiccan veterans die during Clinton's term where this would be
an issue?
TypicalRightWingGunNut
2006-07-04 11:21:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
Did any Wiccan veterans die during Clinton's term where this would be
an issue?
Sure. I recall several.
Simple Simon
2006-07-04 15:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
Did any Wiccan veterans die during Clinton's term where this would be
an issue?
Sure. I recall several.
"I recall" ??? Translation: Answer pulled from butt.
--
One nation, under surveillance.
s***@yahoo.com
2006-07-04 16:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simple Simon
"I recall" ??? Translation: Answer pulled from butt.
--
One nation, under surveillance.
No, I have dealt with hundreds of veterans deaths. 18 years of service
with the VA

However, the issue was the implication that Bush etc. Were denying a
wiccan vet the right to have a religious symbol.

Given the American proclivity for religious division, there will always
be some group that is yet to register its religious symbol.

All Wiccans need to do is approach the government for their particular
symbol. They have yet to do so as they neglected to do so during
Clinton's presidency.

All this to say that this article is a non-issue.
mega@volt.zap
2006-07-04 16:57:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simple Simon
Answer pulled from butt.
Typical lieberal...
Bernard Spilman
2006-07-04 18:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by Simple Simon
Answer pulled from butt.
Typical lieberal...
Can you ever make a point, or do you just post
idiotic misspelled little insults?
WS
Simple Simon
2006-07-04 23:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by Simple Simon
Answer pulled from butt.
Typical lieberal...
...all the OP has to do is provide a citation, flake.
--
One nation, under surveillance.
bushlied
2006-07-04 13:27:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
Did any Wiccan veterans die during Clinton's term where this would be
an issue?
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term

And none in stupid immoral unethical and illegal wars
mega@volt.zap
2006-07-04 16:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?

Very little was DONE during his term.
Bernard Spilman
2006-07-04 18:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and
undermanned, to be slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms. Clinton didn't have an army of synchophantic
chickenhawk supporters clamouring for more Islamic blood
to be shed, while they sat on their asses in the US and smeared
those who actually are brave ebough to fight for America.
Two good things about Clinton's Presidency, there are many
more when you compare it to Bush's.
WS
David Moffitt
2006-07-04 19:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Spilman
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and
undermanned, to be slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms.
%%%% Somolia.

"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

Clinton didn't have an army of synchophantic
Post by Bernard Spilman
chickenhawk supporters clamouring for more Islamic blood
to be shed, while they sat on their asses in the US and smeared
those who actually are brave ebough to fight for America.
Two good things about Clinton's Presidency, there are many
more when you compare it to Bush's.
WS
Bernard Spilman
2006-07-04 19:23:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Moffitt
Post by Bernard Spilman
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and
undermanned, to be slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms.
%%%% Somolia.
Eighteen US dead, over one thousand Somalis dead. George
Bush would be lucky to have such a "failure."
WS
Simple Simon
2006-07-04 23:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Spilman
Post by David Moffitt
Post by Bernard Spilman
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and
undermanned, to be slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms.
%%%% Somolia.
Eighteen US dead, over one thousand Somalis dead. George
Bush would be lucky to have such a "failure."
Besides, it wasn't even Clinton who sent them there! He inherited
that little problem from Bush 41.
--
One nation, under surveillance.
r***@comcast.net
2006-07-05 15:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Spilman
Post by David Moffitt
Post by Bernard Spilman
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and
undermanned, to be slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms.
%%%% Somolia.
Eighteen US dead, over one thousand Somalis dead. George
Bush would be lucky to have such a "failure."
WS
And Clinton didn't send the,m Bush Sr. did.

________________
I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.
Terence
wbarwell
2006-07-04 20:37:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Moffitt
Post by Bernard Spilman
No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and
undermanned, to be slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms.
%%%% Somolia.
That was Bush's doing.
There was a meeting of clan leaders to discuss
dealing with the bad guys that were causing all
the problem. The US military found out about this
meeting and stupidly bombed it, the guys we were
trying to make our allies. At that point
there was no salvaging the situation, all clans
turned on the US. We could not fight all
of Somalia by ourselves with far, far more
deep involv,ent than teh US was probably willing to
go for.

Clinton wisely refused to let us be sucked into
a stupid quagmire created by Bush and out utterly
incompetent US military.

Clinton did the right thing, Bush by failing to
send adequate numbers of trops with proper
leadership and any sort of workable plan was
the failure here.

Pulling out was all that was wise at that point.
--
"..and may I take this opportunity of emphasizing
that there is no cannibalism in the British Navy.
Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there
is a certain amount, more than we are prepared to
admit ..."


Cheerful Charlie
l***@yahoo.com
2006-07-05 02:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Moffitt
Post by Bernard Spilman
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and
undermanned, to be slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms.
%%%% Somolia.
Not that any rational person expects honesty from blowhard reichwing
Ronald Reaganite or George W. Bushite -like GI pretenders, but Somalia
was started by Bush 1....who also did not ensure highest safety for
soldiers he sent there. But when the soldiers were killed, it was
determined that they could not be rescued because such a rescue would
have required tanks. Of course it is true (notice how I am not trying
to hide elements of the situation, as you reichwing whores do)
Clinton's SecDef Aspen also rejected requests from commanders in
Somalia for armor....and after "Blackhawk Down", for which Aspen was
sacked. Unlike Rumsfeld, for the meatgrinder and moneypit Iraq is under
his management.

And *that*, muffy, is why reichwingers like you are squalid little
sluts.
Post by David Moffitt
"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
Clinton didn't have an army of synchophantic
Post by Bernard Spilman
chickenhawk supporters clamouring for more Islamic blood
to be shed, while they sat on their asses in the US and smeared
those who actually are brave ebough to fight for America.
Two good things about Clinton's Presidency, there are many
more when you compare it to Bush's.
WS
David Moffitt
2006-07-05 03:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by David Moffitt
Post by Bernard Spilman
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and
undermanned, to be slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms.
%%%% Somolia.
Not that any rational person expects honesty from blowhard reichwing
Ronald Reaganite or George W. Bushite -like GI pretenders, but Somalia
was started by Bush 1....who also did not ensure highest safety for
soldiers he sent there. But when the soldiers were killed, it was
determined that they could not be rescued because such a rescue would
have required tanks. Of course it is true (notice how I am not trying
to hide elements of the situation, as you reichwing whores do)
Clinton's SecDef Aspen also rejected requests from commanders in
Somalia for armor....and after "Blackhawk Down", for which Aspen was
sacked. Unlike Rumsfeld, for the meatgrinder and moneypit Iraq is under
his management.
%%%% Multiple ad-hominem attacks noted. The statement was:

"No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and undermanned, to be
slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms." As you said ( and agreed ) above they were in Somolia.
Then we cut and ran.
Post by l***@yahoo.com
And *that*, muffy, is why reichwingers like you are squalid little
sluts.
%%%% Ad-hominem noted and laughed at. ":o)

"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by David Moffitt
"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
Clinton didn't have an army of synchophantic
Post by Bernard Spilman
chickenhawk supporters clamouring for more Islamic blood
to be shed, while they sat on their asses in the US and smeared
those who actually are brave ebough to fight for America.
Two good things about Clinton's Presidency, there are many
more when you compare it to Bush's.
WS
'Puke-lick-can Diaries
2006-07-05 04:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Moffitt
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by David Moffitt
Post by Bernard Spilman
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and
undermanned, to be slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms.
%%%% Somolia.
Not that any rational person expects honesty from blowhard reichwing
Ronald Reaganite or George W. Bushite -like GI pretenders, but Somalia
was started by Bush 1....who also did not ensure highest safety for
soldiers he sent there. But when the soldiers were killed, it was
determined that they could not be rescued because such a rescue would
have required tanks. Of course it is true (notice how I am not trying
to hide elements of the situation, as you reichwing whores do)
Clinton's SecDef Aspen also rejected requests from commanders in
Somalia for armor....and after "Blackhawk Down", for which Aspen was
sacked. Unlike Rumsfeld, for the meatgrinder and moneypit Iraq is under
his management.
"No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and undermanned, to be
slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms." As you said ( and agreed ) above they were in Somolia.
Then we cut and ran.
Post by l***@yahoo.com
And *that*, muffy, is why reichwingers like you are squalid little
sluts.
%%%% Ad-hominem noted and laughed at. ":o)
"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please.
You mean take a page out of the 2000-2004 'Puke playbooks? -lmao ... fuck
yer' an idiot
Post by David Moffitt
The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by David Moffitt
"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
Clinton didn't have an army of synchophantic
Post by Bernard Spilman
chickenhawk supporters clamouring for more Islamic blood
to be shed, while they sat on their asses in the US and smeared
those who actually are brave ebough to fight for America.
Two good things about Clinton's Presidency, there are many
more when you compare it to Bush's.
WS
--
"Brainscrub some Christinsanity out today - save a nation tomorrow"
David Moffitt
2006-07-05 04:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Puke-lick-can Diaries
Post by David Moffitt
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by David Moffitt
Post by Bernard Spilman
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and
undermanned, to be slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms.
%%%% Somolia.
Not that any rational person expects honesty from blowhard reichwing
Ronald Reaganite or George W. Bushite -like GI pretenders, but Somalia
was started by Bush 1....who also did not ensure highest safety for
soldiers he sent there. But when the soldiers were killed, it was
determined that they could not be rescued because such a rescue would
have required tanks. Of course it is true (notice how I am not trying
to hide elements of the situation, as you reichwing whores do)
Clinton's SecDef Aspen also rejected requests from commanders in
Somalia for armor....and after "Blackhawk Down", for which Aspen was
sacked. Unlike Rumsfeld, for the meatgrinder and moneypit Iraq is under
his management.
"No brave American patriots were sent, underequipped and undermanned, to be
slaughtered on a fool's errand during
Clinton's terms." As you said ( and agreed ) above they were in Somolia.
Then we cut and ran.
Post by l***@yahoo.com
And *that*, muffy, is why reichwingers like you are squalid little
sluts.
%%%% Ad-hominem noted and laughed at. ":o)
"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please.
You mean take a page out of the 2000-2004 'Puke playbooks? -lmao ... fuck
yer' an idiot
%%%% Damn that was a lame response. I bet it took you an hour to come up
with it. LMAO!

They proclaim that every man is entitled to exist without labor and, the
laws of reality to the contrary notwithstanding, is entitled to receive his
"minimum sustenance" his food, his clothes, his shelter, with no effort on
his part, as his due and his birthright. To receive it, from whom?
Ayn Rand
Post by 'Puke-lick-can Diaries
Post by David Moffitt
The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by David Moffitt
"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a
collection
of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
Clinton didn't have an army of synchophantic
Post by Bernard Spilman
chickenhawk supporters clamouring for more Islamic blood
to be shed, while they sat on their asses in the US and smeared
those who actually are brave ebough to fight for America.
Two good things about Clinton's Presidency, there are many
more when you compare it to Bush's.
WS
--
"Brainscrub some Christinsanity out today - save a nation tomorrow"
wbarwell
2006-07-04 20:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
Put an end to Kosovo, Milosevic's genocides in Bosnia and
Croatia, Put an end to the fleets of dazed Haitians
in ramshackle fishing boats washing up on Florida's shores,
set up the military to deal with Bin Laden and the Taliban
which Bush used the minute OBL made his fatal move,
came close several times to getting Bin Laden, such
the 75 cruise missles slamming into his terrorist camp.
Bombed the Iraqi secret service HQ to a hole in the ground
when Iraq plotted to assinate ex-president Bush,
destroyed Saddam's WMDs. had we not been distracted by a 8 year
long GOP hate campaign agaisnt Clinton, had he had support of
the GOP Congress instead, we may have accomplished more.
As it was the GOP dragged its feet every step of the way when
Clinton acted.
To be sure Clinton had failures, Rwanada was a disaster but we
didn't see the GOP Congress leading either. Bush did not plan
Somalia when he dumped that into Clinton's lap as a going away
gift. When the military botched that, Clinton cut our losses,
which makes him a lot smarter than Bush in Iraq. Clinton's
stupidity in continuing Bush's sanctions in Iraq earned us 9/11
after 500,000 dead Iraqi children. He did not act in Sudan, but
again, the GOP Congress did not lead either. He did bomb the
plant in Sudan where traces of VX manufactor were discovered.

And he did not lie us into a massive, disasterous war.

Bush did and Bush is also letting Afghanistan slide back into
Taliban control.
--
"..and may I take this opportunity of emphasizing
that there is no cannibalism in the British Navy.
Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there
is a certain amount, more than we are prepared to
admit ..."


Cheerful Charlie
sss
2006-07-04 21:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by wbarwell
Put an end to Kosovo, Milosevic's genocides in Bosnia and
Croatia,
Do you know that as a result of this, the stock of the United States
went up markedley in the Arab world

When I traveled to Syria during Clinton's term, people would stop me on
the street, in restaurants, on buses and tell me how much they admired
Bill Clinton and respected the United States
Post by wbarwell
Put an end to the fleets of dazed Haitians
in ramshackle fishing boats washing up on Florida's shores,
set up the military to deal with Bin Laden and the Taliban
which Bush used the minute OBL made his fatal move,
came close several times to getting Bin Laden, such
the 75 cruise missles slamming into his terrorist camp.
Bombed the Iraqi secret service HQ to a hole in the ground
when Iraq plotted to assinate ex-president Bush,
destroyed Saddam's WMDs. had we not been distracted by a 8 year
long GOP hate campaign agaisnt Clinton, had he had support of
the GOP Congress instead, we may have accomplished more.
As it was the GOP dragged its feet every step of the way when
Clinton acted.
To be sure Clinton had failures, Rwanada was a disaster but we
didn't see the GOP Congress leading either. Bush did not plan
Somalia when he dumped that into Clinton's lap as a going away
gift. When the military botched that, Clinton cut our losses,
which makes him a lot smarter than Bush in Iraq. Clinton's
stupidity in continuing Bush's sanctions in Iraq earned us 9/11
after 500,000 dead Iraqi children. He did not act in Sudan, but
again, the GOP Congress did not lead either. He did bomb the
plant in Sudan where traces of VX manufactor were discovered.
And he did not lie us into a massive, disasterous war.
Thank you for a very cogent discussion of Bill Clinton's accomplishments
Simple Simon
2006-07-04 23:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@volt.zap
Post by bushlied
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
Um, so?
Very little was DONE during his term.
8 years of peace and unprecented prosperity. I say we elect in
President Emeritus first chance we get.
--
One nation, under surveillance.
s***@yahoo.com
2006-07-04 16:39:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by bushlied
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
Did any Wiccan veterans die during Clinton's term where this would be
an issue?
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
And none in stupid immoral unethical and illegal wars
You donlt have to be killed in a war to get buried in a national
cemetery. You just have to be a vet or spouse of a vet.
f***@msn.com
2006-07-05 02:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by bushlied
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
Did any Wiccan veterans die during Clinton's term where this would be
an issue?
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
And none in stupid immoral unethical and illegal wars
You donlt have to be killed in a war to get buried in a national
cemetery. You just have to be a vet or spouse of a vet.
Let me ask this another way. Since there is supposed to be a
separation
of church and state, how is it that any symbol has to be approved
before
a veteran can be burried in a national cemetery?

Can anyone cite an example of a Wiccan being denied burrial in a
national
cemetery during Clinton's term because of the lack of an approved
Wiccan
symbol? It's not enough to say one can but one must cite an example
that
can be verified.
David Moffitt
2006-07-05 03:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by bushlied
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
Did any Wiccan veterans die during Clinton's term where this would be
an issue?
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
And none in stupid immoral unethical and illegal wars
You donlt have to be killed in a war to get buried in a national
cemetery. You just have to be a vet or spouse of a vet.
Let me ask this another way. Since there is supposed to be a
separation
of church and state, how is it that any symbol has to be approved
before
a veteran can be burried in a national cemetery?
Can anyone cite an example of a Wiccan being denied burrial in a
national
cemetery during Clinton's term because of the lack of an approved
Wiccan
symbol? It's not enough to say one can but one must cite an example
that
can be verified.
%%%% The vet was not denied burial in a National Cemetary. The VA is
refusing to put an unapproved Wiccan symbol on his government headstone.

They proclaim that every man is entitled to exist without labor and, the
laws of reality to the contrary notwithstanding, is entitled to receive his
"minimum sustenance" his food, his clothes, his shelter, with no effort on
his part, as his due and his birthright. To receive it, from whom?
Ayn Rand
GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
2006-07-05 05:24:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Moffitt
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by bushlied
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
Did any Wiccan veterans die during Clinton's term where this would be
an issue?
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
And none in stupid immoral unethical and illegal wars
You donlt have to be killed in a war to get buried in a national
cemetery. You just have to be a vet or spouse of a vet.
Let me ask this another way. Since there is supposed to be a
separation
of church and state, how is it that any symbol has to be approved
before
a veteran can be burried in a national cemetery?
Can anyone cite an example of a Wiccan being denied burrial in a
national
cemetery during Clinton's term because of the lack of an approved
Wiccan
symbol? It's not enough to say one can but one must cite an example
that
can be verified.
%%%% The vet was not denied burial in a National Cemetary. The VA is
refusing to put an unapproved Wiccan symbol on his government headstone.
Ooooooooooooooo AAAAAAAAAaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Government approval. On your knees,
Moffitt.
Post by David Moffitt
They proclaim that every man is entitled to exist without labor and, the
laws of reality to the contrary notwithstanding, is entitled to receive his
"minimum sustenance" his food, his clothes, his shelter, with no effort on
his part, as his due and his birthright. To receive it, from whom?
Ayn Rand
--
There are only two kinds of Republicans: Millionaires and fools.
f***@msn.com
2006-07-05 12:24:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Moffitt
%%%% The vet was not denied burial in a National Cemetary. The VA is
refusing to put an unapproved Wiccan symbol on his government headstone.
Thanks for the clarification. I did some checking.
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/liberty/veteranpentacle/calltova.htm
spells out the problem. I wonder why this symbol hasn't been
approved. Aren't little plaques with bronze or silver star allowed?
It can't be the pentacle itself that is objectionable. This looks
very close to the prohibition of the free expression of religion.
David Moffitt
2006-07-05 22:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by David Moffitt
%%%% The vet was not denied burial in a National Cemetary. The VA is
refusing to put an unapproved Wiccan symbol on his government headstone.
Thanks for the clarification. I did some checking.
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/liberty/veteranpentacle/calltova.htm
spells out the problem. I wonder why this symbol hasn't been
approved. Aren't little plaques with bronze or silver star allowed?
It can't be the pentacle itself that is objectionable. This looks
very close to the prohibition of the free expression of religion.
%%%% From my research the problem appears to be that a universal symbol for
wiccans has not been submitted. Each individual is not going to get their
(for lack of a better term) favorite symbol applied to the marker.


Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the
black flag, and begin slitting throats.---- H. L. Mencken
f***@msn.com
2006-07-06 01:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Moffitt
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by David Moffitt
%%%% The vet was not denied burial in a National Cemetary. The VA is
refusing to put an unapproved Wiccan symbol on his government headstone.
Thanks for the clarification. I did some checking.
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/liberty/veteranpentacle/calltova.htm
spells out the problem. I wonder why this symbol hasn't been
approved. Aren't little plaques with bronze or silver star allowed?
It can't be the pentacle itself that is objectionable. This looks
very close to the prohibition of the free expression of religion.
%%%% From my research the problem appears to be that a universal symbol for
wiccans has not been submitted. Each individual is not going to get their
(for lack of a better term) favorite symbol applied to the marker.
Did you even try the link provided? From it:

The US Department of Veterans Affairs has had plenty
of time to research, consider, and approve the Pentacle
as the Wiccan emblem of belief -- it has been nearly 9
years since various denominations of the Wiccan religion
have made this request. Required material has been provided
under 3 different sets of protocols and procedures.

So, you're right. The VA had about three years to get this done
under Clinton.
s***@yahoo.com
2006-07-07 11:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by bushlied
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
Did any Wiccan veterans die during Clinton's term where this would be
an issue?
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
And none in stupid immoral unethical and illegal wars
You donlt have to be killed in a war to get buried in a national
cemetery. You just have to be a vet or spouse of a vet.
Let me ask this another way. Since there is supposed to be a
separation
of church and state, how is it that any symbol has to be approved
before
a veteran can be burried in a national cemetery?
Can anyone cite an example of a Wiccan being denied burrial in a
national
cemetery during Clinton's term because of the lack of an approved
Wiccan
symbol? It's not enough to say one can but one must cite an example
that
can be verified.
No one has been denied burial in a national cemetery. All that was
denied was the Wiccan symbol since wiccans have yet to register one.
f***@msn.com
2006-07-07 12:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
No one has been denied burial in a national cemetery. All that was
denied was the Wiccan symbol since wiccans have yet to register one.
from
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/liberty/veteranpentacle/calltova.htm

The US Department of Veterans Affairs has had plenty
of time to research, consider, and approve the Pentacle
as the Wiccan emblem of belief -- it has been nearly 9
years since various denominations of the Wiccan religion
have made this request. Required material has been provided
under 3 different sets of protocols and procedures.

The Wiccans have tried to register one but the VA isn't accepting it
for
some reason. It looks like a violation of the first ammendment, not
that anyone pays attention to the Constitution any more.
Simple Simon
2006-07-07 13:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@msn.com
The Wiccans have tried to register one but the VA isn't accepting it
for some reason. It looks like a violation of the first ammendment,
not that anyone pays attention to the Constitution any more.
Indeed. In an example of how twisted things have become, paying
attention to the Constitution these days gets you branded a traitor.
--
One nation, under surveillance.
r***@comcast.net
2006-07-07 17:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@msn.com
The Wiccans have tried to register one but the VA isn't accepting it
for
some reason. It looks like a violation of the first ammendment, not
that anyone pays attention to the Constitution any more.
The Constitution is soooo pre 9-11.

________________
I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.
Terence
David Moffitt
2006-07-07 19:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by s***@yahoo.com
No one has been denied burial in a national cemetery. All that was
denied was the Wiccan symbol since wiccans have yet to register one.
from
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/liberty/veteranpentacle/calltova.htm
The US Department of Veterans Affairs has had plenty
of time to research, consider, and approve the Pentacle
as the Wiccan emblem of belief -- it has been nearly 9
years since various denominations of the Wiccan religion
have made this request. Required material has been provided
under 3 different sets of protocols and procedures.
The Wiccans have tried to register one but the VA isn't accepting it
for
some reason. It looks like a violation of the first ammendment, not
that anyone pays attention to the Constitution any more.
%%%% How is it a violation of the First Amendment?

"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
l***@yahoo.com
2006-07-08 00:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Moffitt
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by s***@yahoo.com
No one has been denied burial in a national cemetery. All that was
denied was the Wiccan symbol since wiccans have yet to register one.
from
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/liberty/veteranpentacle/calltova.htm
The US Department of Veterans Affairs has had plenty
of time to research, consider, and approve the Pentacle
as the Wiccan emblem of belief -- it has been nearly 9
years since various denominations of the Wiccan religion
have made this request. Required material has been provided
under 3 different sets of protocols and procedures.
The Wiccans have tried to register one but the VA isn't accepting it
for
some reason. It looks like a violation of the first ammendment, not
that anyone pays attention to the Constitution any more.
%%%% How is it a violation of the First Amendment?
Like I've posted before, muffi, you had no understanding of what you
were defending when you were in the service....They are violating the
"freedom of Religion" clause of the First Amendment. The soldier got to
choose his religion; not you, not some "christian" blowhard.
Post by David Moffitt
"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
David Moffitt
2006-07-08 01:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by David Moffitt
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by s***@yahoo.com
No one has been denied burial in a national cemetery. All that was
denied was the Wiccan symbol since wiccans have yet to register one.
from
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/liberty/veteranpentacle/calltova.htm
The US Department of Veterans Affairs has had plenty
of time to research, consider, and approve the Pentacle
as the Wiccan emblem of belief -- it has been nearly 9
years since various denominations of the Wiccan religion
have made this request. Required material has been provided
under 3 different sets of protocols and procedures.
The Wiccans have tried to register one but the VA isn't accepting it
for
some reason. It looks like a violation of the first ammendment, not
that anyone pays attention to the Constitution any more.
%%%% How is it a violation of the First Amendment?
Like I've posted before, muffi, you had no understanding of what you
were defending when you were in the service....They are violating the
"freedom of Religion" clause of the First Amendment. The soldier got to
choose his religion; not you, not some "christian" blowhard.
%%%% His First Amendment rights were not violated. He was not stopped from
worshiping.

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable
Haidegger, Hadidegger was a boozy begger who could think you under the table
David Hume could out-consume Whilhelm Fredrich Hegel
Wittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as schloshed as Schiegel

There's nothing Niezchhe couldn't teach ya 'bout the rasing of the wrist
Socrates himself was permanently pissed
John Stuart Mill, of his own free will, and half a pint of shanty was
particularly ill
Plato they say, could stick it away, a half a crate of whiskey every day
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle
Hobbes was fond of his dram
And Rene Descarte was a drunken fart
"I drink therefore I am"

Yes, Socrates himelf is particularly missed
A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed!
The Philosophers Song -Monty Python
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by David Moffitt
"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr
f***@msn.com
2006-07-08 02:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Moffitt
%%%% His First Amendment rights were not violated. He was not stopped from
worshiping.
Here is the passage:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Part of the exercise of religion is the practice of identifying
one's religion on one's tomb stone as one sees fit.

Now we can quibble about the prohibition being a law made
by Congress or just a regulation imposed by the executive
branch but it is clearly a violation of the free exercise clause.
David Moffitt
2006-07-08 03:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by David Moffitt
%%%% His First Amendment rights were not violated. He was not stopped from
worshiping.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Part of the exercise of religion is the practice of identifying
one's religion on one's tomb stone as one sees fit.
Now we can quibble about the prohibition being a law made
by Congress or just a regulation imposed by the executive
branch but it is clearly a violation of the free exercise clause.
%%%% How is the government not putting a religious symbol on a government
supplied stone a violation? Isn't that an example of separation of church
and state? The family is not barred from putting a symbol on a stone they
bought or burying the body in ground that they provided.
f***@msn.com
2006-07-08 10:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Moffitt
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by David Moffitt
%%%% His First Amendment rights were not violated. He was not stopped from
worshiping.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Part of the exercise of religion is the practice of identifying
one's religion on one's tomb stone as one sees fit.
Now we can quibble about the prohibition being a law made
by Congress or just a regulation imposed by the executive
branch but it is clearly a violation of the free exercise clause.
%%%% How is the government not putting a religious symbol on a government
supplied stone a violation? Isn't that an example of separation of church
and state? The family is not barred from putting a symbol on a stone they
bought or burying the body in ground that they provided.
As long as the government is in the business of approving religious
symbols they will put on government supplied stones they are either
establishing approved religion expression or prohibiting unapproved
religions expression. In certain cases, such as ritual murder, the
goverment has a vested interest but that doesn't appear to be the
case here.
r***@comcast.net
2006-07-08 02:35:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by David Moffitt
Post by f***@msn.com
The Wiccans have tried to register one but the VA isn't accepting it
for
some reason. It looks like a violation of the first ammendment, not
that anyone pays attention to the Constitution any more.
%%%% How is it a violation of the First Amendment?
Like I've posted before, muffi, you had no understanding of what you
were defending when you were in the service....They are violating the
"freedom of Religion" clause of the First Amendment. The soldier got to
choose his religion; not you, not some "christian" blowhard.
I guess dying for your country is just not enough if you are of the
wrong faith.

________________
I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.
Terence
r***@comcast.net
2006-07-07 17:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Post by bushlied
Post by f***@msn.com
Post by TypicalRightWingGunNut
Wiccans have not added their symbol in the past. This has nothing to
do with Bush. Nothing. If it did, then it must also be Clinton. as
their were no wiccan grave options during his term.
Did any Wiccan veterans die during Clinton's term where this would be
an issue?
Very few soldiers died during Clinton's term
And none in stupid immoral unethical and illegal wars
You donlt have to be killed in a war to get buried in a national
cemetery. You just have to be a vet or spouse of a vet.
Let me ask this another way. Since there is supposed to be a
separation
of church and state, how is it that any symbol has to be approved
before
a veteran can be burried in a national cemetery?
Can anyone cite an example of a Wiccan being denied burrial in a
national
cemetery during Clinton's term because of the lack of an approved
Wiccan
symbol? It's not enough to say one can but one must cite an example
that
can be verified.
No one has been denied burial in a national cemetery. All that was
denied was the Wiccan symbol since wiccans have yet to register one.
BS. They've applied for one for nine years and it keeps getting denied
so as not to offend fundamentalist Christians.

________________
I am human; nothing in humanity is alien to me.
Terence
beber
2006-07-05 12:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Hope
Most of their rituals revolve around the cycles of nature, such as
equinoxes and phases of the moon.
What incredible good sense.
b***@aol.com
2006-07-05 15:19:55 UTC
Permalink
Somebody screwed up. Ronald Reagan declared Wicca an official
recognized religion twenty years ago.
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