Discussion:
Say goodbye to the American software programmer
(too old to reply)
MrPepper11
2004-10-15 14:52:17 UTC
Permalink
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor

Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.

Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.

Not everybody agrees programmers will disappear completely. But even
the optimists believe that many basic programming jobs will go to
foreign nations, leaving behind jobs for Americans to lead and manage
software projects. The evidence is already mounting that many computer
jobs are endangered, prompting concern about the future of the
nation's high-tech industries.

Since the dotcom bust in 2000-2001, nearly a quarter of California
technology workers have taken nontech jobs, according to a study of 1
million workers released last week by Sphere Institute, a San
Francisco Bay Area public policy group. The jobs they took often paid
less. Software workers were hit especially hard. Another 28% have
dropped off California's job rolls altogether. They fled the state,
became unemployed, or decided on self-employment.

The problem is not limited to California.

Although computer-related jobs in the United States increased by
27,000 between 2001 and 2003, about 180,000 new foreign H-1B workers
in the computer area entered the nation, calculates John Miano, an
expert with the Programmers Guild, a professional society. "This
suggests any gain of jobs have been taken by H-1B workers," he says.

H-1B visas allow skilled foreigners to live and work in the US for up
to six years. Many are able to get green cards in a first step to
citizenship. Another visa, L-1, allows multinational companies to
transfer workers from foreign operations into the US.

The H-1B visa has been highly controversial for years. This fiscal
year, Congress set a quota of 65,000 visas, which was snapped up
immediately after they became available Oct.1. Now, US business is
pleading for Congress to let in more such workers.

The US Chamber of Commerce, for instance, wants Congress to revisit
the cap "to ensure American business has access to the talent it needs
to help keep our economy strong."

That rationale makes no sense to the Programmers Guild and other
groups that have sprung up to resist the tech visas. Since more than
100,000 American programmers are unemployed - and many more are
underemployed - the existing 65,000 quota is inexcusably high, they
argue. H-1B and L-1 visas are "American worker replacement programs,"
says the National Hire American Citizens Society.

Further, the H-1B program, set up in 1990, is flawed, critics charge.
For example, employers are not required to recruit Americans before
resorting to hiring H-1Bs, says Norman Matloff, a computer science
professor at the University of California, Davis.

And the requirement that employers pay H-1Bs a "prevailing wage" is
useless, he adds, because the law is riddled with loopholes. Nor are
even any remaining regulations enforced.

The average wage for an American programmer runs about $60,000, says
John Bauman, who set up the Organization for the Rights of American
Workers. Employers pay H-1Bs an average $53,000.

A programmer, Mr. Bauman was out of work for 20 months before finally
taking a job with a 40% pay cut. His experience is common enough that
programmers are organizing to fight in Congress against H-1B and L-1
visas.

But they face an uphill battle, says Mr. Miano, as business groups are
far better organized and funded than the smattering of programmer
groups. "They have the best legislation money can buy," he says.

Miano sees such a dim future for programmers that he decided to enter
law school. "I saw the handwriting on the wall," he says.
zerge
2004-10-15 20:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.
Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Richard
2004-10-15 20:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by zerge
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.
Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Not a chance in hell of that happening.
Tiny Human Ferret
2004-10-15 23:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by zerge
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.
Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Not a chance in hell of that happening.
http://www.gnu.org/
http://www.kernel.org/
http://www.netbsd.org/

Whee!

I've got four servers and four laptops running with thousands of
applications available and stability of which M$ can only _dream_ and I
didn't pay a CENT for the software or operating system.
--
The incapacity of a weak and distracted government may
often assume the appearance, and produce the effects,
of a treasonable correspondence with the public enemy.
--Gibbon, "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
Richard
2004-10-16 00:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Richard
Post by zerge
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.
Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Not a chance in hell of that happening.
http://www.gnu.org/
http://www.kernel.org/
http://www.netbsd.org/
Whee!
You're stating the obvious as if it were profound.
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
I've got four servers and four laptops running with thousands of
applications available and stability of which M$ can only _dream_ and I
didn't pay a CENT for the software or operating system.
Try to remember whatever it was you may have learned about logical
argument. The original comment was that we'd get cheaper software as
a direct result of US companies using cheap(er) overseas labor to
make their products. Your reply, supposedly positing that the
existence of good open source s/w refutes my statement about the
impact of cheaper overseas labor on US commercial software retail
prices, is a complete non sequitur.

We are not going to see cheaper retail prices for software as a
direct result of US companies using cheap(er) overseas labor. Not
going to happen. We might get cheaper prices from M$ as a result of
competition from open source vendors, but what's more likely (and has
already started happening, so there's a precendent) is that M$ will
release its source. It'll be under deep restriction (right now, it's
only selected areas of Windows OS code, and only to US government
customers), but that'll probably loosen up if and as M$ transitions
into recreational/entertainment products and relegates its office
productivity products to "cash cow" status.
zerge
2004-10-18 20:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Richard
Post by zerge
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.
Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Not a chance in hell of that happening.
http://www.gnu.org/
http://www.kernel.org/
http://www.netbsd.org/
Whee!
You're stating the obvious as if it were profound.
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
I've got four servers and four laptops running with thousands of
applications available and stability of which M$ can only _dream_ and I
didn't pay a CENT for the software or operating system.
Try to remember whatever it was you may have learned about logical
argument. The original comment was that we'd get cheaper software as
a direct result of US companies using cheap(er) overseas labor to
make their products. Your reply, supposedly positing that the
existence of good open source s/w refutes my statement about the
impact of cheaper overseas labor on US commercial software retail
prices, is a complete non sequitur.
We are not going to see cheaper retail prices for software as a
direct result of US companies using cheap(er) overseas labor. Not
going to happen. We might get cheaper prices from M$ as a result of
competition from open source vendors, but what's more likely (and has
already started happening, so there's a precendent) is that M$ will
release its source. It'll be under deep restriction (right now, it's
only selected areas of Windows OS code, and only to US government
customers), but that'll probably loosen up if and as M$ transitions
into recreational/entertainment products and relegates its office
productivity products to "cash cow" status.
As production costs lower, competition drives price down. No?
av2003
2004-10-18 21:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by zerge
Post by Richard
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Richard
Post by zerge
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.
Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Not a chance in hell of that happening.
http://www.gnu.org/
http://www.kernel.org/
http://www.netbsd.org/
Whee!
You're stating the obvious as if it were profound.
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
I've got four servers and four laptops running with thousands of
applications available and stability of which M$ can only _dream_ and I
didn't pay a CENT for the software or operating system.
Try to remember whatever it was you may have learned about logical
argument. The original comment was that we'd get cheaper software as
a direct result of US companies using cheap(er) overseas labor to
make their products. Your reply, supposedly positing that the
existence of good open source s/w refutes my statement about the
impact of cheaper overseas labor on US commercial software retail
prices, is a complete non sequitur.
We are not going to see cheaper retail prices for software as a
direct result of US companies using cheap(er) overseas labor. Not
going to happen. We might get cheaper prices from M$ as a result of
competition from open source vendors, but what's more likely (and has
already started happening, so there's a precendent) is that M$ will
release its source. It'll be under deep restriction (right now, it's
only selected areas of Windows OS code, and only to US government
customers), but that'll probably loosen up if and as M$ transitions
into recreational/entertainment products and relegates its office
productivity products to "cash cow" status.
As production costs lower, competition drives price down. No?
Depends on how many players are in the field and whether or not one
company is trying to drive the competion to ground. Pricing is also
dedicated to what the market one sells into will bear. Thus the American
market will subsidize the Asian market. You get the picture. I works
that way with automobiles from Japan, which traditionally were more
expensive here than Europe, fore the same model etc. Despite our plight
we are still a richer consumer than say China or eastern Europe and
companies will market keeping that in mind, immaterial from the cost of
production.
Richard
2004-10-18 21:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by zerge
Post by Richard
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Richard
Post by zerge
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.
Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Not a chance in hell of that happening.
http://www.gnu.org/
http://www.kernel.org/
http://www.netbsd.org/
Whee!
You're stating the obvious as if it were profound.
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
I've got four servers and four laptops running with thousands of
applications available and stability of which M$ can only _dream_ and I
didn't pay a CENT for the software or operating system.
Try to remember whatever it was you may have learned about logical
argument. The original comment was that we'd get cheaper software as
a direct result of US companies using cheap(er) overseas labor to
make their products. Your reply, supposedly positing that the
existence of good open source s/w refutes my statement about the
impact of cheaper overseas labor on US commercial software retail
prices, is a complete non sequitur.
We are not going to see cheaper retail prices for software as a
direct result of US companies using cheap(er) overseas labor. Not
going to happen. We might get cheaper prices from M$ as a result of
competition from open source vendors, but what's more likely (and has
already started happening, so there's a precendent) is that M$ will
release its source. It'll be under deep restriction (right now, it's
only selected areas of Windows OS code, and only to US government
customers), but that'll probably loosen up if and as M$ transitions
into recreational/entertainment products and relegates its office
productivity products to "cash cow" status.
As production costs lower, competition drives price down. No?
You're comparing apples to oranges, yes?
Topaz
2004-10-18 23:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by zerge
As production costs lower, competition drives price down. No?
(an interview with William L. Pierce)

WLP: The economy will become worse in that the average White family
will work longer and harder for a smaller reward, for fewer of the
necessities of life, for less security, for a meaner life style than
before. The average standard of living, in other words, will continue
to decline, just as it has in during the past few years. And this is
something which absolutely did not depend on the outcome of the recent
election. Both Clinton and Bush have been supporters of globalizing
the US economy. They both have been boosters of the New World Order,
in other words. They both support the removal of trade barriers with
Mexico, for example, which will accelerate the export of American
industry and American jobs to Mexico, simply because wages are much
lower there. The effect of this, of course, will be gradually to raise
wages in Mexico, while they are pulled down in the United States. But,
then, that's the whole rationale behind the push for globalization,
the push for the New World Order, isn't it? Equalize living standards
around the world. Lift up the poor non-Whites in the Third World and
drag down the rich Whites. Give everyone a fair share of industry and
the wealth which goes with it. Break down national and racial
barriers. Homogenize the world, economically, racially, culturally.
That's the idea which has been pushed inexorably and unceasingly by
the controlled media ever since the Second World War. The controlled
media have made this idea of globalization fashionable; they've made
it a Politically Correct idea, and therefore no one in the controlled
political establishment in this country, whether Democrat or
Republican, dares oppose it.
KAS: So it's this bipartisan push for a global economy which leads you
to predict that the US economy will continue to decline, no matter
which party is in the White House?
WLP: That's one of the reasons, and it's an important reason, but
there are also others. There is the continuing, unchecked flood of
non-White immigration into America, for example. There's the continued
policy of favoritism shown to non-Whites in university admissions, in
the awarding of scholarships, in hiring, and in promotions. And
there's the growing burden of supporting an unproductive and largely
non-White welfare class. All of these reasons for future economic
decline are thoroughly entrenched, they're long-term, and they're
bipartisan reasons. Which is to say that they're Politically Correct,
and so neither the Democrats nor the Republicans dare do anything
about them. Can you imagine either a Democrat or a Republican
proposing that we cut off all non-White immigration into the United
States and try to restore America as a White country? ... There's no
more chance of that than there is of either a Democrat or a Republican
President announcing that the New World Order is a scheme intended to
reduce the White American worker to the same level as the Mexican peon
and the Chinese coolie and that we'll have no part of it. And because
there's simply no chance that the controlled political establishment
in this country, Democrat or Republican, will address or even admit
the existence of the fundamental reasons for the declining living
standard of Americans, I can predict with complete confidence that the
economy will continue to decline, over the long run. There are various
paper-shuffling tricks, of course--fiddling with interest rates,
changing the tax structure, rearranging the Federal budget--which can
make temporary changes in the economy, apparent changes, but they
can't cure this contry's real economic problems.
KAS: That's interesting. But you know, the so-called economic
"experts" that we hear on the controlled media disagree with you
completely. They tell us that this recession is just a little anomaly,
a little readjustment, and that over the long run everything is rosy.
They say that the globalization of our economy is helping America by
allowing us to export more of our products. They say that non-White
immigration is boosting our economy by providing us with needed skills
and eager workers. Here's a recent issue of Business Week; the
headline on the cover says, "The immigrants: how they're helping the
U.S. economy." Are the media experts wrong?
WLP: Yes, they're wrong, and what's worse they know they're wrong.
They're deliberately lying to us, deliberately misleading us, just as
much as the politicians are. It doesn't take a genius to see what's
happened to the economy of this country since the Second World War.
The experts rave about the benefits the new World Order is bringing to
us by allowing us to increase our exports. But the cold, hard reality
is that globalization has brought us an enormous trade deficit. The
fact is that it has wiped out whole industries in this country and
exported them overseas: the consumer electronics industry, for
example, or the machine tool industry. The fact, not the theory, is
that millions of Americans are being forced to switch from high-paying
jobs in manufacturing and basic industry to low-paying service jobs.
The fact is that before the Second World War most American families
needed only one wage earner to keep them comfortable and secure; wives
and mothers could stay at home and take care of their families. Today,
of course, most mothers have to work outside the home. The fact is
that our economy isn't getting better and better; it's actually
getting sicker and sicker.
KAS: You keep referring to the changes which have taken place in the
economy since the Second World War. Why is that? What does the war
have to do with it?
WLP: The Second World War really has everything to do with it. It was,
after all, an ideological war, one could almost say a religious war, a
war between two fundamentally different world views. On one side were
the believers in quality over quantity, the elitists, the believers
that White people, Europeans, are more progressive, are better able to
maintain and advance civilization, and should hold onto their position
of world mastery. On the other side were the believers in quantity
over quality, the egalitarians, the believers in racial and cultural
equality, the people who thought it was wicked for the United States
to remain a White country, wicked for White Britain to have a world
empire, wicked for White Germany to be allowed to smash communism,
wicked to permit nationalism to triumph over internationalism. And the
fact is that the egalitarians won the war. After the Second World War
White Americans could no more justify keeping hordes of hungry,
non-White immigrants out of their country than Englishmen could
justify hanging onto the British Empire. They had cut the moral ground
right out from under themselves.
KAS: Of course, that's not the way it was presented to Americans back
in the 1940s. We were all taught that we went to war to keep America
free, that we were fighting against tyranny, that we were fighting on
the side of decency and justice.
WLP: Nonsense. We were fighting on the side of the folks who marched
the entire leadership stratum of the Polish nation into the woods and
murdered them. And the people who control our news and entertainment
media knew that too. When the German Army discovered those huge pits
full of murdered Polish officers and intellectuals, they called in the
world press to look at the evidence. But the controlled media kept it
quiet, so that we would keep fighting on the side of the murderers.
After the war they blamed it on the Germans. And there was nary a
squawk from the controlled media when we turned the surviving Poles,
and the Hungarians, and the Balts, and all the rest of the Eastern
Europeans over to the same gang of cutthroats who had butchered
Poland's leaders in 1940. Of course, it made sense in a sick sort of
way. After all, murdering a nation's elite is an egalitarian act.
After you kill off the most intelligent, the most able members of a
nation the ones who're left will be more nearly equal.
KAS: And easier to control.
WLP: Yes. But the point is that, the reasons given to the American
people for getting into the war against Germany were all spurious. It
was not a war to keep America free. Americans weren't in the slightest
danger of losing their freedom to the Germans. It was, as I said, an
ideological war. It was a war about what kind of ideas would govern
the world. It was a war about whether we would be proud and White and
strong, or whether we would feel guilty about the fact that Mexican
peons aren't as well off as we are. And we lost the war. That was a
real turning point in the fortunes of our race and our nation. The
loss of the Second World War is the real reason for the decline of the
U.S. economy--and of our social life, our cultural life, and our
spiritual life. Before the war we had a White country, a country
determined to stay White. After the war we no longer had that
determination. Instead we had the vague feeling that it aws wrong of
us to want to stay White. After the war when the controlled media
began pushing for so-called "civil rights" laws and for opening our
borders to the Third World, it was just a continuation of their push
to get us into the war on the side of the people who had made Poalnd a
more "equal" country by slaughtering her leaders at the killing pits
in the Katyn woods. We don't really have time today to trace the whole
process of the breakdown of America after the war, but we can look at
a few examples which more or less tell the story. We've been talking
about the economy, but it's really our whole society which has been
corrupted by the war, by the ideology for which the war was fought.
Think, for example, about what life is becoming for the millions of
White Americans who still live in our cities, especially those cities
with a large minority contingent. We are no longer the masters in our
own land, and we are paying the price for that decline in status.
Crime has soared enormously in our cities and made life a daily
nightmare for millions who cannot move away. Even for those who live
in the suburbs and only must work in the cities during the day, crime
has become an ever-present constraint, a burden, a limit to their
lives. City streets which once were safe for White women and men, by
night as well as by day, are now like minefields where we must proceed
with caution and be always on guard. We know who makes our streets
unsafe. We know against whom we are obliged to bar our windows. We
know whom we must fear if our cars run out of gas or break down at
night. And these are the same people whose welfare support imposes
such an intolerable burden on our strained economy. And it is
interesting that the government cannot solve our crime problem for
exactly the same reason that it cannot solve our economic problem: it
cannot address the causes; it cannot even admit the existence of the
causes, because those causes are Politically Incorrect. Just as the
government economists talk about interest rates and budget adjustments
but dare not speak of the effects of globalism on our economy, the
sociologists talk about "poverty" as the cause of urban crime, but
dare not mention that crime in America today is above all else a
racial problem. Or look at what our schools have become, or look at
popular entertainment. You know what the purpose of a school should
be? It should be not just to pound facts into the heads of children so
they can earn a living; it should be to mold them into good citizens.
It should be to teach them about their roots, about their ancestors,
about their race. It should be to give them a sense of identity, a
feeling of solidarity with their people, a feeling of appreciation for
the civilization which their people created. It should be to teach
them the values and customs which are peculiar to their people. But
most of the schools in America's cities cannot do these things. They
are not even permitted to try to do these things, because these things
are all profoundly racist, the controlled media tell us. The only kind
of school which can teach meaningfully about roots and identity is a
school which is racially homogeneous, but such schools were outlawed
by our government after the Second World War, because they are
contrary to the principles for which that war was fought. When our
kids turn to drugs today, when they learn anti-White rap lyrics from
the television, when they think Magic Johnson is a hero and say upon
meeting a friend, "hey, man, gimme five," we're paying the price of
the war. I said a few minutes ago that the worst aspect of the
breakdown of America was not what's happened to our economy, but
what's happened to our spiritual life, to our morale, to our idealism,
to our character. White Americans haven't become more stupid in the
last 50 years. Most of the people listening to this program understand
exactly what I'm saying. They didn't really need me to point it out to
them. They can see it for themselves. It doesn't take a genius to
understand why our schools aren't working or why the New World Order
will hurt Americans as the price of making Mexicans and Chinese more
prosperous. But it does take just a tiny bit of courage to stand up
and say these things when we've had it drummed into our heads that we
always must be Politically Correct. The people listening to this
program have for years been watching America being torn down. They
have seen the effects of egalitarianism, of liberalism on our society.
They have seen one liberal program after another make things worse and
worse, and they have listened to the controlled media and the
controlled politicians tell them that what's needed to fix things is
more of the same. And they've thought to themselves, this is crazy.
But they've been afraid to say that out loud. They've been afraid to
say, "Hey, look, Joe, the emperor doesn't have any clothes on." And
it's my considered opinion that this timidity, this willingness to go
along with every new insanity imposed on us by the media and the
politicians, even when we know it's unnatural and immoral and
destructive of everything worthwhile--this is a spiritual failure.
This spiritual failure, this willingness to tolerate evil, is a more
serious matter, in my eyes, than our economic decline. When we are
able to heal ourselves spiritually, we'll be able to heal ourselves
economically and socially, but not before.
KAS: Is this spiritual failure entirely the fault of the American
people? You've repeatedly referred to the controlled media as the
principal promoters of the ideology which is at the root of our
problems. Aren't they to blame? Aren't the people who control the
media responsible for what's happening to America? And, by the way,
who are these media controllers?
WLP: Well, I think we all know who wields more control over the news
and entertainment media than any other group. It's the Jews. And, yes,
they deserve a great deal of blame. But not all the blame. Perhaps not
even most of it. After all, they're only acting in accord with their
nature. They're doing what they always do when they come into a
country. We shouldn't have let them do it. We should have stopped them
when they were taking over Hollywood 75 years ago. We should have
stopped them when they began buying up newspapers back before the
Second World War. After the war we shouldn't have let them get
anywhere near a television studio. But we didn't stop them, and the
blame for that really lies with those who have set themselves up as
our political leaders. They sold us out. They sold out America. They
sold out their race. When our kids are exposed to the godawful,
anti-White rap musicals from MTV, should we blame the Jewish owner of
MTV, Mr Redstone, or should we blame the politicians in Washington who
let him get away with it? Personally, I'd go after the politicians
first.
KAS: I see your point. Tell us, Dr Pierce, do you think there's any
hope that White Americans ever will go after the politicians who are
betraying them? Do you think they ever will regain enough spiritual
strength to stand up and say, "Hey, the emperor is naked"?
WLP: I do. I believe that one day they'll be shouting it from the
housetops. More people are angry today about what their government is
doing to America than at any time since the Second World War. As time
passes their numbers and their anger will grow. That is inevitable,
because the policies of the controlled media and the government are
making America an unlivable place. The condition of the economy helps
too. I would really be worried if I thought that the politicians could
patch up the economy enough to lull people back to sleep. But I know
that they can't. I know that conditions can only become worse and
worse under the policies which come from Washington, regardless of
who's in the White House. And this is what gives me hope for the
future. When the pain becomes great enough, anger and frustration will
overcome the fear of being Politically Incorrect, even for the most
timid White American.

www.spearhead-uk.com http://www.natvan.com
http://www.altermedia.info http://www.RealNews247.com
Signal9
2004-10-16 05:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by zerge
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.
Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Not a chance in hell of that happening.
This is just glorified babble. It is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be.
e
2004-10-16 12:47:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Signal9
This is just glorified babble. It is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be.
I certainly hope not as well. What is your evidence that these countless
articles posted are exaggerated?
Walter
2004-10-16 20:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Signal9
Post by Signal9
This is just glorified babble. It is not as bad as everyone is making
it
Post by Signal9
out to be.
I certainly hope not as well. What is your evidence that these countless
articles posted are exaggerated?
I work in the software industry. I'm regularly solicited by headhunters and
corporations asking me to give them pointers on where to find competent
programmers.

My suggestion for those looking for employment in the software industry is
to write and contribute significant improvements to gnu or other free
software. Write articles and submit them to magazines. Create a web site
about programming and create interesting content for it.

Doing such will open a lot of doors.

Or even hang out a shingle and hire yourself.
Sparky
2004-10-17 01:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter
I work in the software industry. I'm regularly solicited by headhunters and
corporations asking me to give them pointers on where to find competent
programmers.
Do they mention price? My current employer would love to hire more talent,
but they do not want to pay market rate (i.e., they want to hire $100K
talent for less than $20K).
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2004-10-17 03:00:27 UTC
Permalink
Good riddance. Programmers are glorified clerical workers. They
got a real bad ("suit"-hating) attitude and make things endlessly
complicated in the name of their own job security. The Hindi on
elance.com get things done ten times faster and ten tmes cheaper.
First we went from small S/32 on every floor to a mainframe in some
distant wharehouse to get the lice-ridden long-haired programmers out
of our hair. Then they made things complicated again - like not
letting us use full screen editors because they supposedly slowed the
system down, like not letting us get the software that solved our
problem (because it violated "standards"). Then we got PCs to have it
all on our desk. But then they wanted networks and ghosting and
workflow diagrams as the wanted to run our lives all over again. As
if their relational databases ever really had "update integrity".
India's not far enough. Mars would be better.

- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Health Reform means abolishing FDR's insurance tax exemption]
[To stop SPAM, Charge net-postage] [Abolish 16th (Inc Tx) Amendment]
ajv2003
2004-10-17 21:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky
Post by Walter
I work in the software industry. I'm regularly solicited by headhunters
and
Post by Walter
corporations asking me to give them pointers on where to find competent
programmers.
Do they mention price? My current employer would love to hire more talent,
but they do not want to pay market rate (i.e., they want to hire $100K
talent for less than $20K).
And than pocket the difference.
Signal9
2004-10-16 20:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Signal9
Post by Signal9
This is just glorified babble. It is not as bad as everyone is making it
out to be.
I certainly hope not as well. What is your evidence that these countless
articles posted are exaggerated?
The fact that I get emails and phone calls every week with offers for
an interview. Not to mention alot of my co-workers and industry
friends do as well.

Sure it is to some degree a problem. But I also admit I would love to
see this problem go away ! (ahhh the good old days)...
Flavius Vespasianus
2004-10-20 00:08:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard
Post by zerge
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Not a chance in hell of that happening.
How true. Now that sneakers are no longer made in the U.S., are they any
cheaper?

Let me rephrase that. Are they any less expensive? (NO)

And the quality stinks.
Gill Bentry
2004-10-20 03:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flavius Vespasianus
Post by Richard
Post by zerge
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Not a chance in hell of that happening.
How true. Now that sneakers are no longer made in the U.S., are they any
cheaper?
Let me rephrase that. Are they any less expensive? (NO)
And the quality stinks.
Are New Balance still made in the US? I need a new pair of sneaks. They
make pretty good sneaks, or used to at least. I'd pay extra for US made
sneaks.
RobertR237
2004-10-20 04:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flavius Vespasianus
How true. Now that sneakers are no longer made in the U.S., are they any
cheaper?
Let me rephrase that. Are they any less expensive? (NO)
And the quality stinks.
Poor example since you are not paying for the sneakers, you are paying for the
endorcements, logo, and name.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
Tiny Human Ferret
2004-10-15 23:11:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by zerge
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
Say goodbye to the American software programmer. Once the symbols of
hope as the nation shifted from manufacturing to service jobs,
programmers today are an endangered species. They face a challenge
similar to that which shrank the ranks of steelworkers and autoworkers
a quarter century ago: competition from foreigners.
Some experts think they'll become extinct within the next few years,
forced into unemployment or new careers by a combination of offshoring
of their work to India and other low-wage countries and the arrival of
skilled immigrants taking their jobs.
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
This is the really funny part: the "cheapest" software -- which has in
fact no cost whatsoever -- is Open Source software.

Desperate to compete against software which is Absolutely Free, the
for-fee software companies are the major drivers of H-1B Visa abuse.

The clear solution to this problem is to run Linux, OpenBSD, or NetBSD.

Zerge, you should look up one of your countrymen, who is one of the most
prolific coders on the planet, and a really nice guy. He gets paid to
write specialty code for some US company, but he is most known for his
contributions to the Open Source community: http://www.gnome.org/

I'm proud to say, I run his software.

And if anyone tells me "they just want to work hard for low pay", I just
tell 'em "If they work as hard as 'Mike' de Icaza and do it as cheap, I
demand that they be admitted to the USA!" Because he revolutionized the
UNIX desktop and did it for FREE.

Show me a money-grubbing hindu that will do that.
--
The incapacity of a weak and distracted government may
often assume the appearance, and produce the effects,
of a treasonable correspondence with the public enemy.
--Gibbon, "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
Sparky
2004-10-16 03:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
This is the really funny part: the "cheapest" software -- which has in
fact no cost whatsoever -- is Open Source software.
Desperate to compete against software which is Absolutely Free, the
for-fee software companies are the major drivers of H-1B Visa abuse.
The clear solution to this problem is to run Linux, OpenBSD, or NetBSD.
Zerge, you should look up one of your countrymen, who is one of the most
prolific coders on the planet, and a really nice guy. He gets paid to
write specialty code for some US company, but he is most known for his
contributions to the Open Source community: http://www.gnome.org/
I'm proud to say, I run his software.
And if anyone tells me "they just want to work hard for low pay", I just
tell 'em "If they work as hard as 'Mike' de Icaza and do it as cheap, I
demand that they be admitted to the USA!" Because he revolutionized the
UNIX desktop and did it for FREE.
Show me a money-grubbing hindu that will do that.
Your argument makes absolutely no sense at all! How does free software help
the American software developer? Why would a company pay people do a job
that many are doing for free?

Personally, I think that the whole "Open Source" thing is eventually going
to collapse under its own weight. When I interview candidates who have
worked on an "Open Source" project, the first question I ask them is "Why
did you participate in the project?" Their answer is always alone the
lines, "So I could get enough visibility to land a good job as a commercial
software developer." When I reply that the movement itself is eventually
going to lead to the destruction of the very market into which they wish to
sell their skills, they look at me with this perplexed look on their faces
and reply along the lines, "You know, you are right. I never really looked
at it from that point of view. I was just trying to get a leg up on the
competition."
Tim Keating
2004-10-16 03:35:10 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:17:09 -0400, "Sparky"
Post by Sparky
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
This is the really funny part: the "cheapest" software -- which has in
fact no cost whatsoever -- is Open Source software.
Desperate to compete against software which is Absolutely Free, the
for-fee software companies are the major drivers of H-1B Visa abuse.
The clear solution to this problem is to run Linux, OpenBSD, or NetBSD.
Zerge, you should look up one of your countrymen, who is one of the most
prolific coders on the planet, and a really nice guy. He gets paid to
write specialty code for some US company, but he is most known for his
contributions to the Open Source community: http://www.gnome.org/
I'm proud to say, I run his software.
And if anyone tells me "they just want to work hard for low pay", I just
tell 'em "If they work as hard as 'Mike' de Icaza and do it as cheap, I
demand that they be admitted to the USA!" Because he revolutionized the
UNIX desktop and did it for FREE.
Show me a money-grubbing hindu that will do that.
Your argument makes absolutely no sense at all! How does free software help
the American software developer? Why would a company pay people do a job
that many are doing for free?
Its called returning value gained back to the commons.
So you won't have to invent everything from scratch.

There is the potential that you may license your original works to
commercial closed sourced vendors. Likewise a commercial Hardware
vendor may approach you to make an open source driver/software
supporting their new device.
Tiny Human Ferret
2004-10-16 14:32:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
This is the really funny part: the "cheapest" software -- which has in
fact no cost whatsoever -- is Open Source software.
Desperate to compete against software which is Absolutely Free, the
for-fee software companies are the major drivers of H-1B Visa abuse.
The clear solution to this problem is to run Linux, OpenBSD, or NetBSD.
Zerge, you should look up one of your countrymen, who is one of the most
prolific coders on the planet, and a really nice guy. He gets paid to
write specialty code for some US company, but he is most known for his
contributions to the Open Source community: http://www.gnome.org/
I'm proud to say, I run his software.
And if anyone tells me "they just want to work hard for low pay", I just
tell 'em "If they work as hard as 'Mike' de Icaza and do it as cheap, I
demand that they be admitted to the USA!" Because he revolutionized the
UNIX desktop and did it for FREE.
Show me a money-grubbing hindu that will do that.
Your argument makes absolutely no sense at all! How does free software help
the American software developer? Why would a company pay people do a job
that many are doing for free?
Proprietary code, or code satisfying needs which aren't served by Open
Source.

That's pretty obvious, don't you think?
--
The incapacity of a weak and distracted government may
often assume the appearance, and produce the effects,
of a treasonable correspondence with the public enemy.
--Gibbon, "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
Sparky
2004-10-16 15:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Sparky
Your argument makes absolutely no sense at all! How does free software help
the American software developer? Why would a company pay people do a job
that many are doing for free?
Proprietary code, or code satisfying needs which aren't served by Open
Source.
That's pretty obvious, don't you think?
Obvious to you and I, but not Joe business owner. I remember when software
packages cost $100K+/year to license. Back then, a software developer did
not have to worry about a business owner trying to get them to perform $100K
worth of work for $5K in compensation, which is not true today. When Sun
dominated the server market, Unix system admins made good money compared to
Windows Admins. Why? It goes back to the cost of getting into the game.
As the price of hardware and software goes down, business owners start to
put the same downward pressure on IT professionals.

In closing, why are there so few COMMERCIAL software companies/developers in
the Linux world compared to the Windows world (one in which developers must
pay for the operating system and their tools which somewhat restricts their
access to the market)? The reason is plain and simple; the money is in the
Windows world. Greed, more than any other factor, drives people. That is
why capitalism works so well. The "Open Source" model discourages capital
investment because investors are used to the big returns that they get on
closed source software. I have had the opportunity to speak with a couple
of executives that pulled their Linux offerings from the market. When ask
why they did so, they unanimously responded with "Because Linux users want
everything for free!"
Tiny Human Ferret
2004-10-16 20:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Sparky
Your argument makes absolutely no sense at all! How does free software
help
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Sparky
the American software developer? Why would a company pay people do a
job
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Sparky
that many are doing for free?
Proprietary code, or code satisfying needs which aren't served by Open
Source.
That's pretty obvious, don't you think?
Obvious to you and I, but not Joe business owner. I remember when software
packages cost $100K+/year to license. Back then, a software developer did
not have to worry about a business owner trying to get them to perform $100K
worth of work for $5K in compensation, which is not true today. When Sun
dominated the server market, Unix system admins made good money compared to
Windows Admins. Why? It goes back to the cost of getting into the game.
As the price of hardware and software goes down, business owners start to
put the same downward pressure on IT professionals.
You do have a point there, though I'm not sure how it relates to the
course of the discussion. I'm basically reduced to being a gardener with
UNIX skills. The only IT money I get right now is if someone in the
neighborhood fux0rs their windows box. It usually takes me an hour to
fix it, at $20/hour. I am not going to be feeding any children with that
sort of income, as it's very sporadic.
Post by Sparky
In closing, why are there so few COMMERCIAL software companies/developers in
the Linux world compared to the Windows world (one in which developers must
pay for the operating system and their tools which somewhat restricts their
access to the market)? The reason is plain and simple; the money is in the
Windows world. Greed, more than any other factor, drives people.
Sure, and that's why we're getting all of the offshoring. But are the
savings in R&D passed on to the consumer? Too early to tell, perhaps,
but I rather suspect that it's probably not going to be the case.
Post by Sparky
That is
why capitalism works so well. The "Open Source" model discourages capital
investment because investors are used to the big returns that they get on
closed source software. I have had the opportunity to speak with a couple
of executives that pulled their Linux offerings from the market. When ask
why they did so, they unanimously responded with "Because Linux users want
everything for free!"
That's true enough. However, some apps are sexy enough that you don't
mind paying for them, for instance, Sun's StarOffice is apparently
rather better than OpenOffice. And there are other examples of for-fee
applications, for instance, commandline PGP -- which is still rather
better that GPG as I understand it -- is quite expensive, something like
$10K per server license.
--
The incapacity of a weak and distracted government may
often assume the appearance, and produce the effects,
of a treasonable correspondence with the public enemy.
--Gibbon, "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
Kamal R. Prasad
2004-10-16 18:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sparky
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
This is the really funny part: the "cheapest" software -- which has in
fact no cost whatsoever -- is Open Source software.
Desperate to compete against software which is Absolutely Free, the
for-fee software companies are the major drivers of H-1B Visa abuse.
The clear solution to this problem is to run Linux, OpenBSD, or NetBSD.
Zerge, you should look up one of your countrymen, who is one of the most
prolific coders on the planet, and a really nice guy. He gets paid to
write specialty code for some US company, but he is most known for his
contributions to the Open Source community: http://www.gnome.org/
I'm proud to say, I run his software.
And if anyone tells me "they just want to work hard for low pay", I just
tell 'em "If they work as hard as 'Mike' de Icaza and do it as cheap, I
demand that they be admitted to the USA!" Because he revolutionized the
UNIX desktop and did it for FREE.
Show me a money-grubbing hindu that will do that.
Your argument makes absolutely no sense at all! How does free software help
the American software developer? Why would a company pay people do a job
that many are doing for free?
Personally, I think that the whole "Open Source" thing is eventually going
to collapse under its own weight. When I interview candidates who have
worked on an "Open Source" project, the first question I ask them is "Why
did you participate in the project?" Their answer is always alone the
lines, "So I could get enough visibility to land a good job as a commercial
software developer." When I reply that the movement itself is eventually
going to lead to the destruction of the very market into which they wish to
sell their skills, they look at me with this perplexed look on their faces
and reply along the lines, "You know, you are right. I never really looked
at it from that point of view. I was just trying to get a leg up on the
competition."
Many do it for the above reason. Not all do it for the above reason. I
like to contribute to the BSD community because I like the OS. It also
gives me an oppurtunity to write stuff that I did not have to -in my
official capacity. It gives me the credentials via deployed code, that
the code that I write is reliable/efficient etc.. You mentioned in one
of your posts that you are grossly over-qualified for your current
post. The same holds true for others too to some extent, because of
which they need to find outlets to express themselves better. This is
one way to do it.

regards
-kamal
Mike (Remove X's to reply)
2004-10-16 08:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by zerge
At least the rest of us will get cheaper software.
Why would it get any cheaper. All software is a monopoly, thanks to
copyright and intellectual property laws. There is no competition for your
specific product, so no reason to lower price.

Thanks,

Mike
Zimba
2004-10-15 23:30:29 UTC
Permalink
It's not all black:
http://tinyurl.com/4dde6
gswork
2004-10-18 08:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
[]
Post by MrPepper11
Although computer-related jobs in the United States increased by
27,000 between 2001 and 2003, about 180,000 new foreign H-1B workers
in the computer area entered the nation, calculates John Miano, an
expert with the Programmers Guild, a professional society. "This
suggests any gain of jobs have been taken by H-1B workers," he says.
It suggests that 27000 new jobs were created for present citizens and
180000 for "H1-B" folks. Sounds like good news all round. Very
Christian too.
Post by MrPepper11
H-1B visas allow skilled foreigners to live and work in the US for up
to six years.
and thus they have to live at US cost-of-living too, so it must be
working ok.
Post by MrPepper11
That rationale makes no sense to the Programmers Guild and other
groups that have sprung up to resist the tech visas. Since more than
100,000 American programmers are unemployed - and many more are
underemployed - the existing 65,000 quota is inexcusably high, they
argue. H-1B and L-1 visas are "American worker replacement programs,"
says the National Hire American Citizens Society.
100,000 with the same skills, commitment and willingness to work at
the pay rates of the H1-B, indeed - it would be pointless to bring
people in if here were so willing a workforce in front of employer's
noses. Maybe there's something else here.
Post by MrPepper11
Further, the H-1B program, set up in 1990, is flawed, critics charge.
For example, employers are not required to recruit Americans before
resorting to hiring H-1Bs, says Norman Matloff, a computer science
professor at the University of California, Davis.
Hmm, what happened tot he very American ideal of employing those most
capable, suited and appropriate to the work? Requiring one
nationality or another is most UN-American.

The moment you accept that quota's on conditions unrelated to aptitude
should be forced onto employers for one facet (being a US progammer)
then you can't argue against any other quota based system, at least
not with any credibility.
Post by MrPepper11
And the requirement that employers pay H-1Bs a "prevailing wage" is
useless, he adds, because the law is riddled with loopholes. Nor are
even any remaining regulations enforced.
The average wage for an American programmer runs about $60,000, says
John Bauman, who set up the Organization for the Rights of American
Workers. Employers pay H-1Bs an average $53,000.
hardly a gulf.
Oliver Costich
2004-10-19 11:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
[]
Post by MrPepper11
Although computer-related jobs in the United States increased by
27,000 between 2001 and 2003, about 180,000 new foreign H-1B workers
in the computer area entered the nation, calculates John Miano, an
expert with the Programmers Guild, a professional society. "This
suggests any gain of jobs have been taken by H-1B workers," he says.
It suggests that 27000 new jobs were created for present citizens and
180000 for "H1-B" folks. Sounds like good news all round. Very
Christian too.
Post by MrPepper11
H-1B visas allow skilled foreigners to live and work in the US for up
to six years.
and thus they have to live at US cost-of-living too, so it must be
working ok.
Not the point. They underbid citizens for the jobs distorting the
labor market for programmers.
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
That rationale makes no sense to the Programmers Guild and other
groups that have sprung up to resist the tech visas. Since more than
100,000 American programmers are unemployed - and many more are
underemployed - the existing 65,000 quota is inexcusably high, they
argue. H-1B and L-1 visas are "American worker replacement programs,"
says the National Hire American Citizens Society.
100,000 with the same skills, commitment and willingness to work at
the pay rates of the H1-B, indeed - it would be pointless to bring
people in if here were so willing a workforce in front of employer's
noses. Maybe there's something else here.
The key phrase is "at the pay rates of the H1-B". Contrary to popular
belief, an employer does not have to do anything in the way of finding
an American for the job beore hiring an H1-B. In theory, this is
supposed to be achieved by having to pay the H1-B the same rate as one
would have to pay an American. This obviously ill-defined or not
enforced since it clear that the purpose of the H1-Bs is to get
cheaper labor.
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
Further, the H-1B program, set up in 1990, is flawed, critics charge.
For example, employers are not required to recruit Americans before
resorting to hiring H-1Bs, says Norman Matloff, a computer science
professor at the University of California, Davis.
Hmm, what happened tot he very American ideal of employing those most
capable, suited and appropriate to the work? Requiring one
nationality or another is most UN-American.
So you suggest it is appropriate to distort a US product in the
marketplace by importing cheap foreign substitutes? This is tantamount
to "dumping" of labor .
Post by gswork
The moment you accept that quota's on conditions unrelated to aptitude
should be forced onto employers for one facet (being a US progammer)
then you can't argue against any other quota based system, at least
not with any credibility.
Then why not open up the borders and let anyone come a take US jobs?
What do you think would be the result? Does the world need a third
world country the size of the US?
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
And the requirement that employers pay H-1Bs a "prevailing wage" is
useless, he adds, because the law is riddled with loopholes. Nor are
even any remaining regulations enforced.
The average wage for an American programmer runs about $60,000, says
John Bauman, who set up the Organization for the Rights of American
Workers. Employers pay H-1Bs an average $53,000.
hardly a gulf.
gswork
2004-10-20 07:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Costich
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
[]
Post by MrPepper11
Although computer-related jobs in the United States increased by
27,000 between 2001 and 2003, about 180,000 new foreign H-1B workers
in the computer area entered the nation, calculates John Miano, an
expert with the Programmers Guild, a professional society. "This
suggests any gain of jobs have been taken by H-1B workers," he says.
It suggests that 27000 new jobs were created for present citizens and
180000 for "H1-B" folks. Sounds like good news all round. Very
Christian too.
Post by MrPepper11
H-1B visas allow skilled foreigners to live and work in the US for up
to six years.
and thus they have to live at US cost-of-living too, so it must be
working ok.
Not the point. They underbid citizens for the jobs distorting the
labor market for programmers.
'underbid', yet still live within the US at US cost-of-living. that
doesn't make sense. The difference was between $60k and $53k, not
$60k and $10k!
Post by Oliver Costich
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
That rationale makes no sense to the Programmers Guild and other
groups that have sprung up to resist the tech visas. Since more than
100,000 American programmers are unemployed - and many more are
underemployed - the existing 65,000 quota is inexcusably high, they
argue. H-1B and L-1 visas are "American worker replacement programs,"
says the National Hire American Citizens Society.
100,000 with the same skills, commitment and willingness to work at
the pay rates of the H1-B, indeed - it would be pointless to bring
people in if here were so willing a workforce in front of employer's
noses. Maybe there's something else here.
The key phrase is "at the pay rates of the H1-B".
which are only $7k less from a $60k start, according to the article.
Post by Oliver Costich
Contrary to popular
belief, an employer does not have to do anything in the way of finding
an American for the job beore hiring an H1-B.
Indeed, just like a Texan firm isn't (or shouldnt be) obliged to hire
Texans before New Yorkers.

Do these H1B's get their money tax free? Are they exempt from US
laws?
Post by Oliver Costich
In theory, this is
supposed to be achieved by having to pay the H1-B the same rate as one
would have to pay an American. This obviously ill-defined or not
enforced since it clear that the purpose of the H1-Bs is to get
cheaper labor.
not *all that* much cheaper though, it seems.

Perhaps another purpose is to get (more) skilled labor. the numbers s
what people talk about, i've not seen any objective study of skills
and attitude of H1B folks
Post by Oliver Costich
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
Further, the H-1B program, set up in 1990, is flawed, critics charge.
For example, employers are not required to recruit Americans before
resorting to hiring H-1Bs, says Norman Matloff, a computer science
professor at the University of California, Davis.
Hmm, what happened tot he very American ideal of employing those most
capable, suited and appropriate to the work? Requiring one
nationality or another is most UN-American.
So you suggest it is appropriate to distort a US product in the
marketplace by importing cheap foreign substitutes? This is tantamount
to "dumping" of labor .
Not at those pay rates, and not what i'm suggesting.

Incidently the "marketplace" is not "American" it is simply global.
It's why Americans can buy very cheap electronic goods for the home
too, for instance.
Post by Oliver Costich
Post by gswork
The moment you accept that quota's on conditions unrelated to aptitude
should be forced onto employers for one facet (being a US progammer)
then you can't argue against any other quota based system, at least
not with any credibility.
Then why not open up the borders and let anyone come a take US jobs?
What's a US Job? A job that happens to be in the US or one that,
somehow and irrespective of ability, is 'owed' to someone holding US
citizenship?
Post by Oliver Costich
What do you think would be the result? Does the world need a third
world country the size of the US?
no, and it wouldn't be the result. it wasn't the result the last
time the US left the border wide open to immigrants either.

overall, i'm sure there are problems with the legislation around this,
there's always interested parties (on all sides) trying to swing
things their way, but the US was born of immigration, it would be
wrong to now suddenly say "pull the ladder up, i'm ok", and ultimately
the US (and any other nation) would stagnate if it tried to stop
changes, stop the clock.
Post by Oliver Costich
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
And the requirement that employers pay H-1Bs a "prevailing wage" is
useless, he adds, because the law is riddled with loopholes. Nor are
even any remaining regulations enforced.
The average wage for an American programmer runs about $60,000, says
John Bauman, who set up the Organization for the Rights of American
Workers. Employers pay H-1Bs an average $53,000.
hardly a gulf.
Flavius Vespasianus
2004-10-20 00:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
[]
Post by MrPepper11
Although computer-related jobs in the United States increased by
27,000 between 2001 and 2003, about 180,000 new foreign H-1B workers
in the computer area entered the nation, calculates John Miano, an
expert with the Programmers Guild, a professional society. "This
suggests any gain of jobs have been taken by H-1B workers," he says.
It suggests that 27000 new jobs were created for present citizens and
180000 for "H1-B" folks. Sounds like good news all round. Very
Christian too.
You are misinterpreting the data. That's 180,000 new jobs for H-1B
programmers and a loss of 152,000 jobs for American programmers.
Tiny Human Ferret
2004-10-20 01:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flavius Vespasianus
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
[]
Post by MrPepper11
Although computer-related jobs in the United States increased by
27,000 between 2001 and 2003, about 180,000 new foreign H-1B workers
in the computer area entered the nation, calculates John Miano, an
expert with the Programmers Guild, a professional society. "This
suggests any gain of jobs have been taken by H-1B workers," he says.
It suggests that 27000 new jobs were created for present citizens and
180000 for "H1-B" folks. Sounds like good news all round. Very
Christian too.
You are misinterpreting the data. That's 180,000 new jobs for H-1B
programmers and a loss of 152,000 jobs for American programmers.
Since the dot.bomb implosion of the US IT industry, 9 out of ten hires
for positions in the USA were H-1B.
--
The incapacity of a weak and distracted government may
often assume the appearance, and produce the effects,
of a treasonable correspondence with the public enemy.
--Gibbon, "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
David Fabian
2004-10-20 07:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flavius Vespasianus
Post by gswork
It suggests that 27000 new jobs were created for present citizens and
180000 for "H1-B" folks. Sounds like good news all round. Very
Christian too.
You are misinterpreting the data. That's 180,000 new jobs for H-1B
programmers and a loss of 152,000 jobs for U.S. programmers.
Actually, that is a loss of 180,000 jobs for U.S. programmers -- 27,000
new jobs filled by H-1Bs and 153,000 old jobs taken over by H-1Bs.
But this is just a small fraction of the number of new high-tech jobs that
treasonous U.S. CEOs created in third-world countries.

Personally, I would like to see the U.S. government convict the out-
sourcing U.S. CEOs of high treason (or at least "crimes against human-
ity", for their obscene levels of greed).
gswork
2004-10-20 07:40:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flavius Vespasianus
Post by gswork
Post by MrPepper11
Endangered species: US programmers
Oct 14, 2004
By David R. Francis, The Christian Science Monitor
[]
Post by MrPepper11
Although computer-related jobs in the United States increased by
27,000 between 2001 and 2003, about 180,000 new foreign H-1B workers
in the computer area entered the nation, calculates John Miano, an
expert with the Programmers Guild, a professional society. "This
suggests any gain of jobs have been taken by H-1B workers," he says.
It suggests that 27000 new jobs were created for present citizens and
180000 for "H1-B" folks. Sounds like good news all round. Very
Christian too.
You are misinterpreting the data. That's 180,000 new jobs for H-1B
programmers and a loss of 152,000 jobs for American programmers.
ah, indeed, and i take the point on re-reading.
Post by Flavius Vespasianus
The average wage for an American programmer runs about $60,000, says
John Bauman, who set up the Organization for the Rights of American
Workers. Employers pay H-1Bs an average $53,000.
if the differentials are of similar proportion in all the IT related
jobs in question then it a) isn't a gulf of a difference, significant
but not enough to lose your house, and b) that this, isn't, therefore
'dumping'.
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...